MBB: NESCAC

[AmherstStudent05]

Bucket,

Thanks for taking the time to carefully respond to my thoughts of earlier today.  It is much appreciated.

I had a longer response in mind (I am sure you can all believe that), but the combination of nescac1's intervening post and my own better judgment have made me reconsider.

There is one point I do want to make though.  It seems every so often on this board we at least tangentially touch on the proper "rules of the road" for posting on here.  This can be a thorny issue for sure.

My own view on this is as follows.  First, most generally, I would hope that all posts here are: (1) respectful, (2) generally positive, and (3) at least occasionally informative or insightful.

Unlike other posters here, I don't spend too much time on other boards on this website, but at least compared to past practice on this board, I think we are doing generally well on all three counts if I do say so myself.  (When I first started reading this board over a decade ago, there were often petty, personal insults hurled about on this board -- many of them by posters who appeared to be affiliated with Amherst, I must admit.)  I think nescac1 and Bucket (among many others) have both been real contributors in this notable improvement in the quality of posts around here.

However, I think this board would lose A LOT of its appeal if posters felt constrained to limit their remarks to complimentary platitudes.  I enjoy reading posters' honest opinions about NESCAC ball, and as great as the NESCAC is, it would be difficult to have an honest or insightful discussion without sometimes having to confront poor, ill-advised or less than inspired play.  Comments on these matters should certainly be fair game in my opinion -- though I would also hope that any such remarks would be "narrowly tailored" (to use a phrase from my profession) so as not to impugn anyone's character, integrity, or general self worth.

But, my bottom line is this:  If nescac1 thinks that Jeff Brown was the only Panther to hold his own in the second half, that is an opinion I am interested in hearing.  I don't expect Midd posters to agree, and it may not be the opinion I would have formulated on my own had I been courtside at Pepin last night, but it is an opinion that I think should be heard and discussed.  Also, I would think by now that nescac1 has built up enough credibility around here that we can give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wasn't just trying to gratuitously put down a Middlebury player.  I would hope the solution wouldn't be to attack him, or ding his karma, but to instead point out why other Midd players actually did "show up" -- a feat that Bucket, Old Guy, Vandy, and Middhoops have all demonstrated they can accomplish.  The more detailed, honest analysis the better in my view.

Just my thoughts on that.

As for the recruiting stuff, I don't see a problem with it at all.  I don't post much recruiting news because I don't have any!  I will just say this on that though: If it is ok to praise Matt St. Amour when he was in high school (and I certainly thought it was), then it should be ok for everyone else as well.

Finally, I confess I was a little surprised by your "D1-ification" or "NBA-ification" point.  You are currently involved in a Hard Knocks style program that could be worthy of any D1 or NBA team (and I truly mean that as a sincere compliment).  While we should remember that d3 is different, I think the attention that is lavished on the guys by d3hoops.com and PN & Co. is certainly a very POSITIVE development, even if the increased attention also sometimes happens to encompass moments when our players/coaches may not be at their best.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but I wanted to get that off my chest.  I will try to stick to the actual games for the rest of the weekend if I can!

[AmherstStudent05]

Wow, Madz, that is terrible to hear about what happened to your nephew.  I had wondered why I hadn't seen him in the Amherst games, but I didn't want to say anything.  Sounds like he is a young man of remarkable perserverance.  Hopefully his comeback will only continue to impress (just as long as it isn't at Amherst's expense!).

Also, credit to Toad as well.  Maybe these Williams guys aren't so bad after all!

[nescac1]

Thanks for sharing Madz, and glad he is back in uniform.  Certainly it was a scary situation.  A good reminder of the valuable roles younger guys play in practice and behind the scenes before they get their own chance in the limelight as upperclassmen ...

[AmherstStudent05]

Sorry, meant "Jake" Brown of course in my post above, not Jeff.  Also, I have noticed that I often mistakingly type "Mayer" when I mean "Maker".  I am pretty good on my "Kizel", but I will try to improve the rest as I go.

[P'bearfan]

Madz - glad to hear your nephew is doing better.  Best of luck to him the rest of the season!

[Bucket]

Bucket, I believe that you took the "no show" comment for something it wasn't.  I can't count how many times I've written here about how tough Middlebury is and how much effort they put in.  I've never seen a Midd team that didn't give its all out there in the many Williams-Midd games I've seen.  Last night was no exception.  Jeff Brown always has his team giving maximum effort.  Williams-Midd games are often a bit ugly to watch because they are played with such high intensity and physicality, on both sides.  That of course doesn't always mean that they play their best.  And in the second half a combination of great defense from Williams and poor execution from Midd (as Panther Nation put it "offensive stagnation kills Middlebury in the second half" -- note there was no mention of Williams in that tweet) enabled the comeback, as well as a very different / much sharper Williams team offensively which, I agree with Toad, was sparked by its defensive play.

Regarding the rest of your comments, I guess I find it kind of amusing that you decry commenting on games as if, as you put it, they are D1 or NBA affairs, when you share the stage here with prolific basketball writers who offer hundreds of words of (always thoughtful, and always appropriate) Grantland-style hoops analysis about NESCAC teams and players, some of which has been critical (again, never in an inappropriate way) of non-Middlebury (as well as Middlebury) players.  If you aren't bothered by the Panther Nation posts which give detailed analysis of, for example, why Aaron Toomey didn't deserve to win player of the year over some other player, I don't see why you'd be bothered by anyone else commenting about games or players in a similar manner. 

Anyway, should be another fun day in NESCAC highlighted by the Bowdoin-Amherst showdown.  The biggest home game Bowdoin has played in quite some time, I expect the crowd will be raucus.

Fair enough. Good points, all.

[Bucket]

Bucket,

Thanks for taking the time to carefully respond to my thoughts of earlier today.  It is much appreciated.

I had a longer response in mind (I am sure you can all believe that), but the combination of nescac1's intervening post and my own better judgment have made me reconsider.

There is one point I do want to make though.  It seems every so often on this board we at least tangentially touch on the proper "rules of the road" for posting on here.  This can be a thorny issue for sure.

My own view on this is as follows.  First, most generally, I would hope that all posts here are: (1) respectful, (2) generally positive, and (3) at least occasionally informative or insightful.

Unlike other posters here, I don't spend too much time on other boards on this website, but at least compared to past practice on this board, I think we are doing generally well on all three counts if I do say so myself.  (When I first started reading this board over a decade ago, there were often petty, personal insults hurled about on this board -- many of them by posters who appeared to be affiliated with Amherst, I must admit.)  I think nescac1 and Bucket (among many others) have both been real contributors in this notable improvement in the quality of posts around here.

However, I think this board would lose A LOT of its appeal if posters felt constrained to limit their remarks to complimentary platitudes.  I enjoy reading posters' honest opinions about NESCAC ball, and as great as the NESCAC is, it would be difficult to have an honest or insightful discussion without sometimes having to confront poor, ill-advised or less than inspired play.  Comments on these matters should certainly be fair game in my opinion -- though I would also hope that any such remarks would be "narrowly tailored" (to use a phrase from my profession) so as not to impugn anyone's character, integrity, or general self worth.

But, my bottom line is this:  If nescac1 thinks that Jeff Brown was the only Panther to hold his own in the second half, that is an opinion I am interested in hearing.  I don't expect Midd posters to agree, and it may not be the opinion I would have formulated on my own had I been courtside at Pepin last night, but it is an opinion that I think should be heard and discussed.  Also, I would think by now that nescac1 has built up enough credibility around here that we can give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he wasn't just trying to gratuitously put down a Middlebury player.  I would hope the solution wouldn't be to attack him, or ding his karma, but to instead point out why other Midd players actually did "show up" -- a feat that Bucket, Old Guy, Vandy, and Middhoops have all demonstrated they can accomplish.  The more detailed, honest analysis the better in my view.

Just my thoughts on that.

As for the recruiting stuff, I don't see a problem with it at all.  I don't post much recruiting news because I don't have any!  I will just say this on that though: If it is ok to praise Matt St. Amour when he was in high school (and I certainly thought it was), then it should be ok for everyone else as well.

Finally, I confess I was a little surprised by your "D1-ification" or "NBA-ification" point.  You are currently involved in a Hard Knocks style program that could be worthy of any D1 or NBA team (and I truly mean that as a sincere compliment).  While we should remember that d3 is different, I think the attention that is lavished on the guys by d3hoops.com and PN & Co. is certainly a very POSITIVE development, even if the increased attention also sometimes happens to encompass moments when our players/coaches may not be at their best.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but I wanted to get that off my chest.  I will try to stick to the actual games for the rest of the weekend if I can!

Very good point about me treading a fine hypocritical line, decrying d1-ification while not only embracing but being involved with the Midd hoops vid. I don't have an answer—which is its own answer, I guess. That is, you (and nescac1, raising the issue of PN's treatises) are right. I stand corrected.

And yeah, I, too, do not want this board to go the way of pollyanna. I guess I was just looking for critical analysis more in line w/Toad's writings. But again, I can see how that can be viewed as a splitting of hairs.  Consider it an emotional response. It's not the first time and certainly won't be the last.

[old_hooper]

Just out of curiosity when was he last time Midd lost a game at home with a 16 point lead at half?  Also, when was the last time Williams won a game on the road trailing by 16 at half?

Still feeling the pain of last night loss to Colby for the Jeffs, but all do respect to Colby and Coach Strahan for playing an inspired second half.  Got to feel good for this young team as this was a huge step forward for this program.

Madz, thanks for sharing the story on your nephew.  Glad to hear he is coming back and healthy to play.  That is what is so special about these young men, the character they bring to a team.

[middhoops]

Thanks, AmherstStudent05 for the re-leveling of our tender but successful playing field.   I agree with all of your points.  I didn't find nescac1's comments in any way upsetting but I think that if Bucket, or anyone, does; they should feel free to speak their mind. 
Last summer I made a comment about a NESCAC assistant coach coming to Johnson St. College and pointed out the difference in recruiting and expressed a sincere wish that he would be very successful.  A well respected poster from Maine took offense at my "arrogant tone".  I re-read my post, of course found no arrogance in my words and didn't think about it again.  A week or so later, Vandy74 emailed me and said I had "stirred a hornet's nest" without knowing it and the Middlebury oriented posters (most especially PN) were parsing my words down to the letter to demonstrate that I hadn't used an "arrogant tone".  Again, I didn't care.  I said what I thought.  Someone disagreed with me.  I found nothing to apologize for nor any reason to take offense to the rebuke.  This board works well that way.
I've made some mistakes and tried to either correct myself or apologize as quickly as possible, as I see everyone else doing. 
You gave an excellent framing of our working model.

[lemonjello]

Entertaining first half in Brunswick, as the Polar Bears lead the Jeffs by 2 37-35.  Amherst has been fairly one-dimensional offensively, relying heavily on the 3-ball to counteract Bowdoin's 2-3 zone and the interior menace that is John Swords.  Amherst came out hot from deep, building a double-digit lead behind the shooting of Connor Green, David Kalema, and Tom Killian, and one began to wonder whether they would bury the Polar Bears.  Amherst was making some great passes around the perimeter to find the open shooter.  Bowdoin hung tough and was able to come back when the shots stopped falling.  Matthias and Madlinger were the leading scorers for Bowdoin, doing a lot of their damage on mid-range jumpers, and Swords chipped in with 6.

It was a quiet first half for Aaron Toomey with just 3 points, though we've seen this movie before.  He sat a bit at the end of the half with foul trouble, giving Reid Berman some high-leverage playing time.  Overall, Amherst looked a little too content to rely on perimeter shooting.  Swords is a big presence in the middle, but I'd love to see some more drives on him to get him into foul trouble (as Green was able to draw #2 on Swords near the end of the half).

Also, I've enjoyed the Bowdoin announcers so far.  While they fall into the homerish use of the word "we" a bit more than I would like, they're pretty entertaining, knowledgeable (other than referring to Coach Hixon as "Hilton"), and are not afraid to point it out when a bad call goes in their favor.  They also pointed out some Bowdoin students duelling in the stands with plastic swords after every John Sword bucket, pretty funny.

[madzillagd]

This is going to be a fun 2nd half of basketball up at Bowdoin.  I tuned it just in time to catch the Polar Bears to go from down 12 to up 2.  Toomey has yet to assert himself on offense which I expect him to do as the game goes on.  Should be a good one. 

One thing I noticed (and really disliked) is the students are on the top level and the 'grown ups' are in the floor seats.  Somebody needs to get the kids on the floor, they need that excitement.  Kind of a bummer during the run to see kids going nuts up top and most of the folks on the bottom sitting down. 

[toad22]

Bowdoin comes up just short, but demonstrates that they are for real this year. The difference maker, again, was Toomey. The difference is, however, quite small. Bowdoin will be very dangerous in the tournament.

[Old Guy]

Now I believe. Got the whole Bowdoin-Amherst game. Fabulous game. 70-67, Amherst. Bowdoin is for real. Amherst shot over the Bowdoin zone - 37 three attempts, made 15. Green was on fire. What a quick release. Toomey was Toomey, terrific in the second half, managing the game, hitting big threes down the stretch. Amherst will be happy with this win, a good one.

[AmherstStudent05]

Amherst prevails over Bowdoin, 70-67 in a game that was much too close for comfort.  But congratulations to Coach Hixon & Co. for rebounding after a tough loss last night against Colby to secure a nice road win over a tough Polar Bear team.  With the win, Amherst is still is the driver's seat in the NESCAC race, although things are obviously very close.

The player of the game was Conner Green, who, right on cue, regained his scoring touch with 26 points.  One thing about Conner is that you never have to worry about him losing his confidence.  Toomey had 16 points, 10 assists, and 0 turnovers in another brilliant performance.  Most notably, he knocked down both free throws in a one-and-one situation with Amherst up 1 with 20 seconds to play.  No one I would rather have than Aaron to take those crucial shots.

Bowdoin played a very nice game, but was ultimately done in by their 18 turnovers (compared with just 5 for Amherst).  Madlinger was shooting out of his mind, finishing with 19 points on 7-10, 5-6 shooting.

There were 4 bench points combined in this game (all for Bowdoin).

Anyway, once again, big sigh of relief for Amherst.  Congrats to the guys on a huge win.

[P'bearfan]

Tough loss as Bowdoin falls to Amherst 70-67.  The P'bears endured several Amherst runs - especially at the beginning of the game and deep into the second half.  Bowdoin pulled close at the end but couldn't hit a 3 to tie it - mostly due to Amherst's tough defense.  Two differences in the game were: 1) Amherst's 3 pt shooting - especially Connor Green who was 6-14 for 26 points; 2) Turnovers.  Bowdoin turned the ball over 18 times compared to just 5 for Amherst.  While some of Bowdoin's turnovers were due to great defensive pressure by Amherst some were result of poor passing.  That limited Bowdoin's shot attempts quite a bit.

Despite the loss Bowdoin certainly showed that they can play with one of the best teams in the country.  Hopefully they'll be able to re-group as they still have tough games ahead with Middlebury, Bates and Tufts (all on the road).