MBB: NESCAC

[middhoops]

Yesterday I was reading on the America East Transfer blog to see if there was any mention of Hartford having interest in ..... anyone.  None.
A kid originally from Vermont is leaving the UVM basketball team after a redshirt (suited up but didn't play) year and then a year when he stayed on the bench.  A seemingly serious comment was, "he should go to Williams.  that's near where he's from."
The D1 bloggers immediately pointed out the talent level at Williams and the obvious academic requirement.  I was mildly surprised that they all agreed that Williams played at a level of D3 that couldn't be compared to local D3 state schools.  No one later suggested the kid would be a star at the top level of D3.
I believe the point is that this player never was a D1 level talent, NOT that a D1 guy is moving down to be an instant star.  As a partisan I will say that if this player decided to play at Midd and could get in, I'd be a very happy camper.

[rlk]

Reading through the D1 comments, I think JustAFan brought up the best point.  It's like asking the question: how good do you have to be to play on a bad basketball team?  I look at it this way, we haven't seen very many D3 to D1 transfers but we have seen a lot of D1 to D3 transfers and when that happens routinely every year around the country, those players are not regularly showing up on the All American lists.  If the talent is that much greater of a lower D1 bench player than a great D3 player, then you'd think those players would dominate when they transfer down but that isn't what we've been seeing.  There are definitely some very good players and they play well at the D3 level, but they are not automatically head and shoulders above the rest.

Well, about 5 years ago Noel Hollingsworth transferred from Brown (where he had 23 minutes of playing time as a frosh) to MIT, where he was a dominant force (in the two years that he was healthy) on a very powerful team, and NEWMAC POY and 2nd team NABC All-American his sophomore year.

On the flip side, Mitchell Kates and Will Tashman from the same team played for Team USA in the Maccabiah Games (which was otherwise almost all D1 players) and both had a major impact (Tashman was one of the top rebounders, if not the top rebounder, on that team, and Kates played the entire second half in the gold medal victory against Argentina).  Having seen Kates play against the likes of Jeremy Lin, Oliver McNally, and Siyani Chambers at Harvard, I will not say that he could not have played D1 had he so wished.  Tashman, though, probably didn't have the size to play low post in D1, and he was certainly one of the top players of that type in D3.

[Old Guy]

Intuitively, I find it hard to believe the best players on the top D3 teams aren't as good as the bench players on lower level D1 teams.

[Charles]

Intuitively, I find it hard to believe the best players on the top D3 teams aren't as good as the bench players on lower level D1 teams.

Agreed, and even more when you look at D1 teams like Hartford, Quinnipiac, Sacred Heart, New Hampshire, Maine or Vermont, there are any number of players at NESCAC, NE10 or even some LEC schools that could get significant playing time. It really comes down to which AAU team, who knows whom, whose Coach has a connection. Other than the top programs and some bigs, there is but a fine line between most good players.

[nescac1]

Speaking of Quinnipiac, one interesting example is Colin Tabb, who is, so far as I can recall, the best D1 transfer to NESCAC in recent decades.  As a frosh, here were his numbers at Quinnipiac in 1999:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/quinnipiac/colin-tabb (7.6/3.1/.9, shooting 39/32/78)

He transferred to Trinity.  Unfortunately, Trinity's stats don't go back to to his sophomore year, but they do cover his junior year:

http://caribou.cc.trincoll.edu/depts_pub/news/sports_brochures/mbball/2000-01%20Season/MBStatistics0001.htm (18.2/7/3, shooting 46/36/86). 

Of course, there is a big difference between a freshman and a junior, so some portion of that bump is attributable to natural growth as a player.  And he continued to improve, making a massive jump to 24.8 ppg as a senior, one of the highest single-season scoring averages in recent NESCAC history, if not the highest. 

At least in Tabb's case, he probably projected to be a solid starter as an upperclassman at Quinnipiac, and in NESCAC, he was a superstar (conference POY) by his senior year. 

Another more recent example from elsewhere in D3 is Kam Cerroni.  As a junior at Wisconson Green Bay, he averaged 5.8/1.1/.7, and shot 38/35/97.  Last year at St. Norbert, a top-10 D3 team, he averaged 16.5/2.8/1.5, and shot 54/54/93.  I haven't seen Cerroni play, but he seems like a fairly good comparison to Matt Hart.  Cerroni is obviously an incredible deep shooter.  But the different in numbers is a testament to how much more room / time you have to get your shot off vs. the vast majority of D3 teams. 

I think in general, someone who can be a contributor at virtually any D1 school (meaning, a starter or important reserve) projects into a star, if not a superstar, at the D3 level.  But I agree that the top players in D3 are likely better than the deep bench players at those same schools.  The question is, would you rather be like Tabb or Cerroni, starring and earning accolades for very good D3 teams, or playing as a back-up or maybe a spot starter at a lower-tier D1 team?  I could see an argument either way, it depends on what you value as a player.  By the way I believe that Aaron Toomey, and certainly Duncan Robinson, are both better overall than Colin Tabb (although he was more athletic than either), and either could start for a Quinnipiac-level program in my view. 

[Charles]

Speaking of Quinnipiac, one interesting example is Colin Tabb, who is, so far as I can recall, the best D1 transfer to NESCAC in recent decades.  As a frosh, here were his numbers at Quinnipiac in 1999:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/quinnipiac/colin-tabb (7.6/3.1/.9, shooting 39/32/78)

He transferred to Trinity.  Unfortunately, Trinity's stats don't go back to to his sophomore year, but they do cover his junior year:

http://caribou.cc.trincoll.edu/depts_pub/news/sports_brochures/mbball/2000-01%20Season/MBStatistics0001.htm (18.2/7/3, shooting 46/36/86). 

Of course, there is a big difference between a freshman and a junior, so some portion of that bump is attributable to natural growth as a player.  And he continued to improve, making a massive jump to 24.8 ppg as a senior, one of the highest single-season scoring averages in recent NESCAC history, if not the highest. 

At least in Tabb's case, he probably projected to be a solid starter as an upperclassman at Quinnipiac, and in NESCAC, he was a superstar (conference POY) by his senior year. 

Another more recent example from elsewhere in D3 is Kam Cerroni.  As a junior at Wisconson Green Bay, he averaged 5.8/1.1/.7, and shot 38/35/97.  Last year at St. Norbert, a top-10 D3 team, he averaged 16.5/2.8/1.5, and shot 54/54/93.  I haven't seen Cerroni play, but he seems like a fairly good comparison to Matt Hart.  Cerroni is obviously an incredible deep shooter.  But the different in numbers is a testament to how much more room / time you have to get your shot off vs. the vast majority of D3 teams. 

I think in general, someone who can be a contributor at virtually any D1 school (meaning, a starter or important reserve) projects into a star, if not a superstar, at the D3 level.  But I agree that the top players in D3 are likely better than the deep bench players at those same schools.  The question is, would you rather be like Tabb or Cerroni, starring and earning accolades for very good D3 teams, or playing as a back-up or maybe a spot starter at a lower-tier D1 team?  I could see an argument either way, it depends on what you value as a player.  By the way I believe that Aaron Toomey, and certainly Duncan Robinson, are both better overall than Colin Tabb (although he was more athletic than either), and either could start for a Quinnipiac-level program in my view.

from experience  can tell you that the biggest difference is that D1 everyone gets a full ride. In D3 someone tends to have to pay.....

[grabtherim]

Take the top 25% of D1 players out of the equation.  Their talent and skill set dwarf not only D3 players but also the other 75% of D1 players.  That said, the biggest differences between the D1 and D3 are speed and play above the rim.  Put top level D3 players in a 3 on 3 or 4 on 4 half court game with a bunched up court, and D3s can play if not excel vs D1s.  Take the same guys and have them run full, and the world changes.  While the skill sets may be close especially among the guards, the speed at which a legit D1 kid does it at becomes immediately apparent and is a game changer.  That said, we have seen kids in the NESCAC who could have had a real chance to compete at D1.  Of recent vintage, if they practiced against D1 players day in and day out, Toomey, Sharry and Whittington immediately come to mind.  Based on what I have seen, I think it's safe to say the same about Robinson and Sabety, even more so if their games continue to mature.   

[nescac1]

Looks like we'll have another test for our high D3 / low D1 conundrum.  And it looks like Amherst solved its guard issue for next year.  Kinda figured Hixon wouldn't rest easy after how the season ended for the Jeffs ...

6'2" guard Jayde Dawson (Montreal, QC) will transfer from Fairleigh Dickinson to academic power Amherst College in Massachusetts. #NCAAD3

Dawson was ranked 63 in New England in 2013, higher than any other D3 player save for Duncan Robinson, who was 50, so he will obviously likely be a major impact player for the Jeffs.  Interesting fact: he originally committed to UMass Lowell, which is coached by former Eph Pat Duquette, but ended up at FDU, where he had a minimal impact as a frosh ... but I'm guessing he won't have a minimal impact in NESCAC. 

[jayhawk]

Jayde was NEPSAC Class B player of the year senior year at Brooks School in New England
21st ranked high school player in Canada his senior year (top players included Andrew Wiggins and Tyler Ennis)


More news for Amherst B Ball may come

[Charles]

Jayde was NEPSAC Class B player of the year senior year at Brooks School in New England
21st ranked high school player in Canada his senior year (top players included Andrew Wiggins and Tyler Ennis)


More news for Amherst B Ball may come

sounds fishy to me. too many schools, too many commitments.

[jayhawk]

Additional Amherst College transfer
Eric Conlin, 6'7", 240 lb invited walk on from University of Arizona Basketball is transferring to Amherst College
Eric was honorable mention all-state high school player at Chaparral High School in  Arizona
Was recruited in high school and decided to accept invited walk =on
Very rugged, talented big man who can score inside.
I believe 4.0 GPA in high school and freshman year at Arizona

By the way Jayde Dawson originally committed to UMASS Lowell and when that Coach accepted Fairleigh Dickinson coaching job, Jayde Dawson followed.

Amherst will have an intriguing group of players for next year

[nescac1]

Amherst is clearly bringing in a third straight strong recruiting class.  With Dawson and Conlin added to the mix, Amherst's NINE man sophomore class of George, Dawson, Conlin, Berman, Nabatoff, Racy, Wright, plus a few others who may eventually see the court (but a few guys will have to be the odd man out on the perimeter), is absolutely ridiculous.  Williams, Midd, and Tufts all have stellar rising sophomore classes as well (in particular Williams), but that kind of depth in a single NESCAC class is unheard of.   It's certainly nice to be Coach Hixon and have, apparently, limitless flexibility to add to the roster. 

While the Jeffs will be young next year after losing three senior starters and with, possibly, no seniors in the starting lineup (and probably only one in the rotation at all), Amherst will grow throughout the year and looks to be absolutely loaded heading into 2015-16 and even more so in 16-17. 

Charles, I discount the move from UMass Lowell to FDU, because as jayhawk the coach moved and he simply changed his commitment to follow the coach -- that is not uncommon.  So really, it's only one change of note, from FDU to Amherst. 

[nescac1]

Here is a Conklin highlight tape. Excellent footwork for a young big guy.  I'd compare him to a more athletic version of Peter Lynch (as an upperclassman) from Middlebury.  In other words, he looks like a guy who can make an immediate impact in NESCAC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LNY8OdKs2A

With George, Pollack, Conklin, and Nabatoff, Amherst has more quality depth inside than any NESCAC team I can recall.  And those guys are going to be around for awhile ...

[Charles]

Amherst is clearly bringing in a third straight strong recruiting class.  With Dawson and Conlin added to the mix, Amherst's NINE man sophomore class of George, Dawson, Conlin, Berman, Nabatoff, Racy, Wright, plus a few others who may eventually see the court (but a few guys will have to be the odd man out on the perimeter), is absolutely ridiculous.  Williams, Midd, and Tufts all have stellar rising sophomore classes as well (in particular Williams), but that kind of depth in a single NESCAC class is unheard of.   It's certainly nice to be Coach Hixon and have, apparently, limitless flexibility to add to the roster. 

While the Jeffs will be young next year after losing three senior starters and with, possibly, no seniors in the starting lineup (and probably only one in the rotation at all), Amherst will grow throughout the year and looks to be absolutely loaded heading into 2015-16 and even more so in 16-17. 

Charles, I discount the move from UMass Lowell to FDU, because as jayhawk the coach moved and he simply changed his commitment to follow the coach -- that is not uncommon.  So really, it's only one change of note, from FDU to Amherst.

he also had committed to Cornell. went to a prep school from a HS in Canada. and we all know about how prep schools are with grades...

[middhoops]

Should this practice of recruiting D1 players supplant recruiting high school kids as the new normal, I for one will be disappointed.  One D1 transfer is understandable.  Two is a pattern.  Has a NESCAC team every landed two D1 transfers in the same week before?
I do not hope for my friend amh63 to agree with me (even a little) but while I grant Hixon's huge on going success, I can see again where he frustrates his competitors.  Chose my words more carefully than usual right there, I did.