MBB: NESCAC

[Bucket]

The biggest thing, with more teams in some of the regions means more ranked teams, which means more games against ranked teams.  More teams will also lessen the Northeast benefit of being able to schedule weaker opponents who also have good records.  There just isn't going to be as much margin for error as our region has enjoyed the last few years.

yes, but these rankings that people are getting all worked up over have no official merit whatsoever. Do some people not realize that these rankings are just a website's attempt to poll the opinion of 25 folks on who they think the best teams in DIII basketball are?

It's a website opinion poll, people. Yes, these SIDs, coaches, and media have hoops knowledge, but I think you are crediting them with an impact that is just not warranted.

[AmherstStudent05]

Bucket, I read Hoops Fan to be talking about the regional rankings, but perhaps I got that wrong.

Old Guy, yes it is quite likely that the Amherst basketball players will have no meaningful academic commitments for most of January.  Interterm is basically another word for "vacation."  Unless you are writing a thesis! (Bust our team is too young for that anyways)

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The biggest thing, with more teams in some of the regions means more ranked teams, which means more games against ranked teams.  More teams will also lessen the Northeast benefit of being able to schedule weaker opponents who also have good records.  There just isn't going to be as much margin for error as our region has enjoyed the last few years.

yes, but these rankings that people are getting all worked up over have no official merit whatsoever. Do some people not realize that these rankings are just a website's attempt to poll the opinion of 25 folks on who they think the best teams in DIII basketball are?

It's a website opinion poll, people. Yes, these SIDs, coaches, and media have hoops knowledge, but I think you are crediting them with an impact that is just not warranted.

No, I'm talking about the regional rankings.  Those do matter.  The NE has always had some advantages because of the sheer number of schools in the region.  Regions are much more even numbers wise this year.  That will have a huge impact on what the SOS and vRRO numbers look like.  We saw last year how important vRRO was to Pool C bids - not just wins, but total games.  Teams from the Atlantic and Great Lakes are going to have a better chance to get those now, which means more teams with better resumes competing for the at-large slots come March.

[Pat Coleman]

For all the weeping and gnashing of teeth on Middlebury, here's a reminder of who they have actually played and what a voter looking at them right now would consider:

Middlebury (6-0) Last week: # votes: 0 ()   
Nov. 15   3:00 PM   Mitchell (1-3) @ Biddeford, Maine •   W, 101-71
Nov. 16   2:00 PM   at University of New England (1-5) •   W, 69-67
Nov. 22   2:00 PM   Medgar Evers (1-4) @ Bridgewater, Mass. •   W, 99-45
Nov. 23   2:00 PM   at Clark (3-5) @ Bridgewater, Mass. •   W, 72-67
Nov. 30   2:00 PM   RPI (1-4) •   W, 87-78
Dec. 2   7:00 PM   at St. Joseph's (Vt.) (1-4)   W, 90-64
Dec. 6   4:00 PM   Skidmore (3-3) •   

That number for St. Joseph's is their record vs. D3 teams.

You could make a slightly better case for Cortland, but I'm not sure this room thinks Trinity is a world-beater at this point:

Cortland State (4-0) Last week: # votes: 0 ()   
Nov. 18   7:00 PM   Utica (2-4) •   W, 73-54
Nov. 21   6:00 PM   Farmingdale State (1-5) @ Ithaca, NY •   W, 75-54
Nov. 22   4:00 PM   Trinity (Conn.) (5-2) •   W, 72-63
Dec. 2   5:30 PM   Ithaca (1-4) •   W, 91-73
Dec. 5   5:30 PM   Buffalo State (1-1) * •   
Dec. 6   2:00 PM   Fredonia State (0-2) * •   
Dec. 13   2:00 PM   at SUNYIT (1-3) •   

[AmherstStudent05]

For all the weeping and gnashing of teeth on Middlebury, here's a reminder of who they have actually played and what a voter looking at them right now would consider:

Middlebury (6-0) Last week: # votes: 0 ()   
Nov. 15   3:00 PM   Mitchell (1-3) @ Biddeford, Maine •   W, 101-71
Nov. 16   2:00 PM   at University of New England (1-5) •   W, 69-67
Nov. 22   2:00 PM   Medgar Evers (1-4) @ Bridgewater, Mass. •   W, 99-45
Nov. 23   2:00 PM   at Clark (3-5) @ Bridgewater, Mass. •   W, 72-67
Nov. 30   2:00 PM   RPI (1-4) •   W, 87-78
Dec. 2   7:00 PM   at St. Joseph's (Vt.) (1-4)   W, 90-64
Dec. 6   4:00 PM   Skidmore (3-3) •   

That number for St. Joseph's is their record vs. D3 teams.

You could make a slightly better case for Cortland, but I'm not sure this room thinks Trinity is a world-beater at this point:

Cortland State (4-0) Last week: # votes: 0 ()   
Nov. 18   7:00 PM   Utica (2-4) •   W, 73-54
Nov. 21   6:00 PM   Farmingdale State (1-5) @ Ithaca, NY •   W, 75-54
Nov. 22   4:00 PM   Trinity (Conn.) (5-2) •   W, 72-63
Dec. 2   5:30 PM   Ithaca (1-4) •   W, 91-73
Dec. 5   5:30 PM   Buffalo State (1-1) * •   
Dec. 6   2:00 PM   Fredonia State (0-2) * •   
Dec. 13   2:00 PM   at SUNYIT (1-3) •

Good stuff, Pat.  I just hope you are too busy to put together a similar chart for my Jeffs!

[Pat Coleman]

Uhh, no, not too busy as this is what the voters get every week.

[JEFFFAN]

Yes - meant Toomey - missed about 10 years.  In terms of sheer talent, Robinson likely is included in that top three but I don't think that he can be included there in terms of all-time NESCAC.   Talent, possibly, but not based on one year.   FYI - I heard Hixon say last year, when asked, that the best basketball player he ever had at Amherst was not Toomey or Olsen ... but Jim Rehnquist, AMH 77.   Yup, son of.  Look him.  The guy was a great, great 6'4" shooter before the days of the 3-point line.

[madzillagd]

Midd was #4 in the nation 2 years ago in the preseason poll and played a weak schedule.  By the time they hit 8-0 they were up to #2. The year before that they started @ #5 and made it to #1 by the time they hit 9-0 playing the same types of teams.  Last year they started at #18, played their toughest early season schedule in years, lost twice and only dropped to #19 going 6-2.  I'm not saying their current set of games this year is great, but we should at least acknowledge that it's basically the same level of teams that had them ranked in the top 2 spots in the country in previous years.  To say it's not good enough this year to make them Top 25 in a year of polling chaos when it was good enough to make them the top team in the country a few years ago is ironic. 

[Pat Coleman]

But it's different coming off a 17-win season. When you're coming off a 25-, 26-, 28-win season, there's reason to rank a team more highly because they generally still have coach and players that got them those wins.

I notice a distinct lack of Middlebury fans arguing for Midd being ranked here -- just Plattsburgh and Amherst fans. Maybe you just want them ranked so you can beat a ranked team.

[madzillagd]

If there is one thing you can always count on, it's Midd fans deflecting praise for the team.  They like to think it's going to surprise folks when they are good yet we always see them coming 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Re: Duncan Robinson.  The Detroit News reports that he recently broke Nik Stauskas's 3-point record.  Nik was merely one of the deadliest long-range bombers ever, and Big Ten POY in 2013(?).  (They didn't specify anything regarding the record - my speculation would be that it was longest string of made 3's.)

IF DR had not transferred I think it would be a safe assumption that he would be one of the all-time NESCAC greats, and probably a national POY at least once.

I can't wait to see him next year.  What a coup it would be if a D3 player became a flat-out star in arguably the best D1 basketball conference!   A year with the UM strength coach should do him wonders - his only short-coming was that by D1 standards he was downright 'wispy'.

[amh63]

Need to qualify Interterm means vacation period a little....from a parent who had three kids at Amherst. . Otherwise the label used on the football board for the NESCAC..Where you pay to play...takes a deeper meaning.
While indeed students use it as time to work on their thesis...step needed for a degree with honors...the interiterm is a time for students to seek internships and work as interns somewhere.  It allows some students to earn funds...others to explore free courses, studies, or just sleep.  The key is the activities undertaken gains NO Academic credit. People have taken auto mechanics if it is given.  The dorms are open and the dining halls are open.

[nescac1]

Since he only played one year, I would not say that Duncan Robinson is the best NESCAC player ever.  But he certainly had the best freshman year of any NESCAC player ever, and I feel confident in saying that he is the most talented player to ever play for a NESCAC team in the NCAA era (which started in 1994, so several really strong players, like Rehnquist, Harry Sheehy, and Matt Hancock, all of whom belong in a best-ever discussion, are excluded, but they are much harder to  judge since they didn't play in NCAA tourneys and since most of us never saw them play).  Put it this way: what other NESCAC player could have earned a full basketball scholarship to Michigan after their freshman year?  The only other guy who MIGHT have had a shot, in my mind, is Nogelo, but even he didn't really explode as a player until he was a sophomore. 

Midd has, no doubt, beat up on a weak schedule so far.  But so have some other teams ranked above them, including some other teams who are not undefeated.  It looks like it is going to be one of those years in D3 in which the rankings fluctuate wildly and in which teams rapidly rise and fall.  Just not a lot of true powerhouse teams at the top this season, and it is going to be a WIDE open battle for the national title, I expect. 

[P'bearfan]

To take nothing away from Bates, I have been concerned all along that the loss of Madlinger, White and Mathias would be too much for Bowdoin to withstand and be a top tier team, a worry that seems confirmed after two 20 point road losses to good teams.  In addition to their on-court contributions of consistent and clutch 3 point shooting and defense, these three provided solid senior leadership, chemistry and a toughness.  Additionally, it allowed Hausman to come off the bench to provide offensive spark when needed, something sorely lacking so far. Unless they can integrate Swords into the offense more, become more consistent in shooting beyond the arc, and revert to playing the tough defense of last year, I am afraid that a .500 NESCAC record is beyond reach.  This team has talent and can cause problems with anyone, I just doubt they are a top tier team right now.

I agree with some of the points that polar73 made above but have a different view on others.

Last year's seniors accounted for more than 70% of the outside scoring and they were incredibly accurate. This allowed Bowdoin to quickly close gaps or extend leads.  So far this year's squad is lacking that reliable offensive burst or punch.

I have to disagree regarding chemistry.  In the first four games this year's team moved the ball very well and unselfishly until they found the open man with a great shot.  They haven't cared who was taking that shot.  You can't do that without a reasonably high degree of chemistry.

However, there have been long stretches where the P'bears have not been able to get the shot they want.  This has resulted in some forced or highly contested shots and low scoring – even by proven shooters.  Opponents are defending Swords more effectively in part by preventing entry passes. When this happens Bowdoin needs to find a way to create more open shots for other players.

The defense is a little trickier.  Last year Grant White was arguably one of the better perimeter defenders in the conference and he gave Bowdoin great flexibility on defense.  However, for most of this season, Bowdoin has played smothering team defense and has been plenty tough.  Last night Bowdoin struggled defensively in the second half due in part to the loss of Fuller who quarterbacks the defense.

Bowdoin has all the pieces to compete with anyone in the NESCAC.  It may take a little time, a little tweaking and development but I'm confident they can do it.

I'll be headed to Brunswick this weekend to watch Bowdoin take on Colby.  Go U Bears!

[Panthernation]

Since he only played one year, I would not say that Duncan Robinson is the best NESCAC player ever.  But he certainly had the best freshman year of any NESCAC player ever, and I feel confident in saying that he is the most talented player to ever play for a NESCAC team in the NCAA era (which started in 1994, so several really strong players, like Rehnquist, Harry Sheehy, and Matt Hancock, all of whom belong in a best-ever discussion, are excluded, but they are much harder to  judge since they didn't play in NCAA tourneys and since most of us never saw them play).  Put it this way: what other NESCAC player could have earned a full basketball scholarship to Michigan after their freshman year?  The only other guy who MIGHT have had a shot, in my mind, is Nogelo, but even he didn't really explode as a player until he was a sophomore. 

In further support of Robinson: consider that if he were simply born a year later, he could have easily been deserving of the NESCAC POY as a freshman. (He probably wouldn't have won, for the same unwritten rule that kept him off the First Team.) Here's what we wrote about Robinson when considering his candidacy for POY last spring:

"Robinson scored 18.9 points per game, shooting 75% on 2-point field goals and 53% on 3-point fields goals, making him the best pure scorer in the conference. Robinson led the conference in both 2-point and 3-point percentage. As in, the best three-point shooter in the conference had a higher field goal percentage inside of the arc than John Swords and Hunter Sabety — and it wasn't even close. The 6'7″ versatile wingman is also a plus defender, and finished conference play with 1.2 steals and 1.1 blocks per game. He added 2.1 assists and 5.2 rebounds per contest. If you can have a flawless season as the top scorer on a top team nationally, it would look a lot like Duncan Robinson's 2013-14. But Robinson missed one game out of ten in conference play, and Toomey's points plus assists might surpass his efficiency deficiency, so we think the award should go to the Amherst senior."

It's hard to imagine any NESCAC player in 2015 putting together a better season than Robinson's freshman year. But Robinson was a freshman when Aaron Toomey was a senior, and had Toomey's 21.6/6.6/5.2 line to compete with. Abstracted from his competition, Robinson's 2014 is POY-level performance; the shooting numbers look fictional. It seems fair to say he was an all-time great talent.