MBB: NESCAC

amh63 · January 06, 2015, 04:55:58 PM

Took a break from watching the Amherst WBB game....yes on videocast of sorts. See there is a zillion posts of the recent rankings....admit I forgot they are out....even when I heard Pat C. and d-mac discuss the "problem" on Hoopsville.
Make a suggestion to the posters.....there are two interesting games tonight....SUNY-Plattsburg vs Middlebury and ECSU vs Amherst. Both CAC teams are on the road. The OCC teams are good!
The Conference games start this coming weekend! Forget the rankings for awhile. The key is the CAC tourny and who gets in...first....than who wins the title and gets the post season auto bid. Thought we all chatted about this in the preseason period...SOS...Conf changes....and how many bids the NESCAC may get. Me, I am sitting back this season and hoping that Amherst will get to host the conference tournament.

7express · January 06, 2015, 05:01:53 PM

Me personally, I'd have Amherst somewhere in the 21-30 range (either 1 of the last 5 in, or one of the first 5 out) since as mentioned they lost to the two best teams they've played....and badly I might add. Plus their 2 wins last week (Drew & Goucher) were less than perfect againt average to bad teams out of average to bad conferences. I could live with beating a Carthage or a Platteville or a Randolph by 4 points in overtime because those decent teams in strong leagues: Goucher is a bad team in a decent league. However, history probably has something to do with rankings and such. As has mentioned, the Jeffs will have the chance to prove themselves this week: @ Eastern tonight, @ Hamilton Friday, @ Williams Saturday.

grabtherim · January 06, 2015, 05:03:36 PM

Quote from: amh63 on January 06, 2015, 04:55:58 PM
Took a break from watching the Amherst WBB game....yes on videocast of sorts. See there is a zillion posts of the recent rankings....admit I forgot they are out....even when I heard Pat C. and d-mac discuss the "problem" on Hoopsville.
Make a suggestion to the posters.....there are two interesting games tonight....SUNY-Plattsburg vs Middlebury and ECSU vs Amherst. Both CAC teams are on the road. The OCC teams are good!
The Conference games start this coming weekend! Forget the rankings for awhile. The key is the CAC tourny and who gets in...first....than who wins the title and gets the post season auto bid. Thought we all chatted about this in the preseason period...SOS...Conf changes....and how many bids the NESCAC may get. Me, I am sitting back this season and hoping that Amherst will get to host the conference tournament.

When it all comes down to it, it's all about the games. Truth be told, despite my allegiance to the Panthers, I see Midd with major question marks on many fronts. It appears the same can be said about the rest of the league as well. That said, I hate to sit by idly when others knock one team for a "brutally bad" schedule while extolling and ranking another with identical question marks and strength of schedule. Let's play the games.

7express · January 06, 2015, 05:05:38 PM

Also, this is starting to become a Richard Stockton vs. #1 ranking back last February in the top 25 pool, where there'd be a "while you were typing 100 new replies have been made". I'd hate to see anyone else get perma-banned like that poster did. Let's keep it cool in here.

7express · January 06, 2015, 05:10:37 PM

My last point before I get of enemy territory:

Even though I vote in the posters polls, top 25 rankings are completely meaningless! They have no basis or no merit on what teams do or don't make the NCAA tournament. Case in point I believe Staten Island ended the regular season in the top 25 but failed to make the tournament. Being ranked in the top 25 is NOT a criteria for selecting a team to the tournament. Most teams in the top 25 do indeed end up making the tournament anyways, but there are examples of teams finishing ranked not going (Staten Island last year, Utah State finished the 2003 or 2004 D-1 season ranked #25 but failed to get into the NCAAs). Just win your own games and everything will take care of it's self whether you are ranked or not!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh · January 06, 2015, 05:27:36 PM

grabtherim - you are trying to extrapolate an undefeated season against a schedule that includes one team at .500 and one team above .500 for Middlebury with that one team above .500 being their opponent tonight (haven't played them, yet). In turn, you are indicating that Amherst is equal because they lost to two teams who above .500 records on their schedules among the SIX teams (counting their opponent tonight) with .500 or better records the Lord Jeffs have faced (going 3-2 versus).

Amherst has an OWP (counting their opponent tonight) of .471. Middlebury has an OWP (counting their opponent tonight) of .356. The ONLY way you can get Amherst's OWP down to the same level as Middlebury's is if you remove the two losses they had (Brandeis and Babson) - that is the only way. So are you trying to say Middlebury's schedule shouldn't be dismissed because when you compare the two resumes with only the wins accounted for, Amherst's OWP is now at the same low level as Middlebury? What if Amherst has played two different opponents than Brandeis and Babson? Where are the two games missing that should be accounted for?

Again counting tonight's games, Amherst will have played SIX teams with .500 or better records. Middlebury will have played TWO. If both teams win tonight, Amherst will be 4-2 versus those six opponents and Middlebury 2-0. Amherst will be 1-1 versus Top 25 teams. Middlebury will be 0-0. Please tell me... in your thinking... why Middlebury's schedule is on par with Amherst. Amherst has played teams and yes loss some. Middlebury has not played teams and of course has won. That doesn't automatically equate to Top 25 votes. Cortland State is undefeated... and they are getting four more total points than Middlebury - WHO IS BEING CONSIDERED FOR THE TOP 25!

toad22 · January 06, 2015, 05:56:44 PM

It may be that there aren't very many really good teams this year. There do seem to be a great many good, but somewhat flawed teams. I think Middlebury is doing just fine with their philosophy of playing local, not very good teams, before league play. They tried the other approach last year, and it hurt them badly. If Midd can 8-2, or even 7-3 in the league, they pretty much guarantee a bid to the NCAAs.

jumpshot · January 06, 2015, 06:13:04 PM

After all of the preceding discussion:

Miserable performance tonight by both Plattsburgh and Middlebury in the first half, characterized by poor shooting, unforced errors, and individualistic rather than team play.

middhoops · January 06, 2015, 07:03:53 PM

Midd against Plattsburgh is never an artful game. Good road win.

grabtherim · January 06, 2015, 07:40:37 PM

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 06, 2015, 05:27:36 PM
grabtherim - you are trying to extrapolate an undefeated season against a schedule that includes one team at .500 and one team above .500 for Middlebury with that one team above .500 being their opponent tonight (haven't played them, yet). In turn, you are indicating that Amherst is equal because they lost to two teams who above .500 records on their schedules among the SIX teams (counting their opponent tonight) with .500 or better records the Lord Jeffs have faced (going 3-2 versus).

Amherst has an OWP (counting their opponent tonight) of .471. Middlebury has an OWP (counting their opponent tonight) of .356. The ONLY way you can get Amherst's OWP down to the same level as Middlebury's is if you remove the two losses they had (Brandeis and Babson) - that is the only way. So are you trying to say Middlebury's schedule shouldn't be dismissed because when you compare the two resumes with only the wins accounted for, Amherst's OWP is now at the same low level as Middlebury? What if Amherst has played two different opponents than Brandeis and Babson? Where are the two games missing that should be accounted for?

Again counting tonight's games, Amherst will have played SIX teams with .500 or better records. Middlebury will have played TWO. If both teams win tonight, Amherst will be 4-2 versus those six opponents and Middlebury 2-0. Amherst will be 1-1 versus Top 25 teams. Middlebury will be 0-0. Please tell me... in your thinking... why Middlebury's schedule is on par with Amherst. Amherst has played teams and yes loss some. Middlebury has not played teams and of course has won. That doesn't automatically equate to Top 25 votes. Cortland State is undefeated... and they are getting four more total points than Middlebury - WHO IS BEING CONSIDERED FOR THE TOP 25!

You really don't get it. Even you should be able to understand that the only reason to look at the OWP without the Babson game is to show how one opponents record skews the analysis. By the way, you do know that they lost that game by 20 at home and then again by 20 or so a day or two later at home, correct?. Off that why drop them to 18, you should have moved them up. Others may have, but I have never mentioned anything about an undefeated season so don't put words in my mouth. I could care less who is in the Top 25 now. That stuff will sort itself out by games. What I take issue with is your correct analysis of why neither should be ranked at this point, then you defending your pick of #18. Its absurd logic. That together with Pat's take on the word "facts" and "brutally bad" being one in the same are laughable. Hey I have a good question for you the next time you have Hixon on which you should be due for in a week or two: If you were a tree, what type would you be? That is far more probing than any fluff you have thrown out thus far. Nice road win for Midd tonight. Tarantino showing some nice recognition and motor. Brown's hoops IQ is catching up with his speed, a very good sign as well. Amherst handling Eastern CT pretty easily, Great defense by the LJs. Held them scoreless for 5 minutes in the 2nd half. Dawson is very poised. Maybe it's just me, but I would move them up to #1. I'm sure I have Dave's vote.

jumpshot · January 06, 2015, 07:42:03 PM

amHerst leads Eastern Conn by 1 at 23-22 at half after shooting 26% with Nabatoff 0-9, McCarthy 2-10, Green 1-4 in only 9 minutes. Just goes to show how well other NESCAC teams have been playing in recent years ...to which we all became accustomed.

polbear73 · January 06, 2015, 07:47:03 PM

Bowdoin, 84-78 in OT at Bridgewater. Final.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) · January 06, 2015, 08:22:08 PM

Quote from: jumpshot on January 06, 2015, 07:42:03 PM
amHerst leads Eastern Conn by 1 at 23-22 at half after shooting 26% with Nabatoff 0-9, McCarthy 2-10, Green 1-4 in only 9 minutes. Just goes to show how well other NESCAC teams have been playing in recent years ...to which we all became accustomed.

That was an ugly, sloppy first half all around - real tough to believe this Amherst squad isn't coming off a long break. They certainly look better than they did earlier this road trip, but I'm not sure either of these teams should be ranked right now.

nescac1 · January 06, 2015, 08:49:32 PM

Well, not all the games may have been pretty, but tonight was a huge night for NESCAC -- a 7-0 night vs. out-of-conference teams, with six of the seven wins impressive (three by blow-out, three against very solid Husson, Brandeis, and Eastern Conn teams). NESCAC often gets off to a rough start in the first semester, due in large part to abbreviated practice schedules, before teams start to hit their stride. That was probably exaggerated a bit this year thanks to all the personnel turnover across the league. I still don't see a national powerhouse team in the conference akin to what Amherst and Williams have been for the past few years, and Midd before that, but one thing is clear -- there are not going to be many easy games vs. ANY NESCAC squad this year, and I'd say that at least eight of the eleven teams in the conference, nine if Tufts starts playing to its talent level, are legitimate threats to win the NESCAC title and/or make the NCAA tourney if they get hot.

Friday is going to be REALLY fun, with three games already that look like true toss-ups: Colby at Wesleyan, Trinity at Williams, Midd at Bates. Those three match-ups may provide some insight into the relative strength of those teams. Or they may just lead to even more question marks ...

Of course Amherst at Williams is Saturday's highlight, and will be really unpredictable. Both teams will be really fired up (as always for this rivalry), Williams because the seniors will want to add a few more notches on the belt in what has been a very rough few years vs. the Jeffs, Amherst because the memory of the Final Four humiliation is surely still fresh in their minds. Amherst has the long road trip, but then again, Williams will get beaten up by physically by Trinity the night before while Amherst is likely to cruise vs. an undermanned Hamilton squad, so that probably evens out.

As for Amherst, they've certainly shown they know how to win ugly. McCarthy looks like the overwhelming favorite for ROY in NESCAC -- who would have guessed that with George and Green returning, and the two D1 transfers, he'd clearly be Amherst's best player so quickly? Looks like he may be the next all-American for the Jeffs, unless Green returns to form quickly. Seems like their rotation has really tightened up with the two big guys off the bench both sitting with injuries, basically, a seven-man rotation right now. Surprised Berman is not playing a bit more given how effective he has been.

Bucket · January 06, 2015, 08:54:44 PM

Grabtherim and 7express speak the truth. Thanks fellas.

All this teeth-nashing over a meaningless exercise is a waste of everyone's time.

Games and games alone will determine each team's fortune, not this silly poll. I, quite frankly, don't give much of a damn what a collection of folks think of my team. If it had any meaning or impact then I might feel differently.