MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

For what it is worth....in the Maine school matchups, travel and  away factors with unfamiliar surroundings and baskets is less of a factor than the back to back game factor....IMO.  The Maine schools are familiar with the facility differences...especially the veterans.  Playing tough opponents back to back ican be wearing on starters and matchups and depth become more in play.
Do not know how to factor in crowds.   
Amherst is in the interim period and the student content of the crowd will be unknown in the Williams vs Amherst matchup on Friday.  Older Amherst fans are less vocal

[AmherstStudent05]

As it turned out, that was an aberrantly bad performance for what I think ended up as the most talented (not the best, the most talented -- I'll take my chances with Mayer, Robinson, Epley, Wohl, and Rooke-Ley at their best vs. any five guys who ever played together on any NESCAC squad, at their best, though) team we've ever seen in NESCAC. 

Nescac1, I am sure it will not surprise you that I am not sure I agree with your statement above.  Of course, that Williams team lost 3 out of 4 games (each one by double digits no less) to an Amherst team that, once Ben Pollack got hurt, essentially went only 5 deep.  Again, you guys laughed last and laughed hardest that year -- no doubt about that and I have no interest in reliving that -- but I do think that over a fairly reasonable sample size our 5 that year (Toomey, Killian, Green, Kalema, and George) managed to do pretty well against the 5 you have listed.

Obviously, a lot here hinges on what you mean by "at their best."  If you mean, at their best in any stage of their lives, then you may well have a very strong argument after all as DR alone could end up tipping the scales on that one (not to mention how Wohl and HRL improved over the following year).  If, on the other hand "at their best" means as best as they played in the season in question, then I am not so sure.  Again, I think Toomey, Killian, Green, Kalema and George played alright as a quartet in 2014.  And, of course, I think the 13 lineup of Toomey, Workman, Kaasila, Williamson and Killian could be pretty tough to beat.  A national player of the year, another all-American, a third all-nescac guy and a fourth guy who was MOP of the NCAA Tournament is an awful lot of talent in one place.

I am sure there could be other schools I am missing. But it is fun to think about. 

AmherstStudent/Nescac1

As I recall that Williams 14 team, the challenging part in establishing its overall bona fides comes with the difference in that team between December and March. Duncan Robinson, while now a deserving NESCAC legend and high-level D1 contributor, was nowhere near a dominant player in the first half of the season or even well into January, whether because of deferring to older players or still improving on that late-bloomer arc that is now such a significant part of his story, going all the way back to Governor's Academy. Also, if memory serves, Michael Mayer had an ankle injury that sidelined him in December and kept him from top form until deep into January. Wohl, also, as a junior, was improving rapidly throughout the season. So, the Williams team that starched Amherst in Salem was very different from the team that lost three times -- decisively -- to Amherst during the season. This is what teams do. They get better, they get worse, they get tired. In Salem that year, Amherst looked like a tired team, for whatever reason. (And missing Pollack by then?? Can't remember when that happened. George was an inconsistent freshman). Williams certainly contributed to that appearance, but Amherst also contributed to its own demise that night. Guessing that in 14, Williams and Amherst never played each when both teams were ``at their best.''

Very good points, nescac24.  I certainly agree that teams generally get better as the season progresses and that that Williams14 team probably improved more than most. 

I will say that Amherst beat Williams convincingly in the NESCAC Championship game that season, which was obviously very late into the year.  By then Pollack was certainly out, Mayer appeared to be fully healthy (that was a rare game I got to see in person) and DR played outstanding ball in that game.

Then, a month later, Williams cleans our clocks.  Did the light go on for Williams somewhere during the course of those final 3 weeks of the season?  Was Amherst fading at the end?  Was it just one of those days?  I guess we will never know.  For my part I guess I have a bit of a hard time believing that Williams could have changed so much during the course of March, but it is certainly possible.  As an Amherst example, while our 2013 team was pretty strong throughout the year, Allen Williamson went from key role player to superstar during basically the exact same stretch of time (AW starting picking up his game on the cusp of the NESCAC Tournament).  Could he have kept it up for several more games or did he just get hot at the right time? Again, I guess we will never know.

(Finally, one small quibble.  I don't see DR as a "NESCAC legend."  I think I have been quite clear in my admiration for DR's game -- how could I not?!!!  I said at the time that he was clearly the best freshman I have ever seen in the NESCAC and I thought he was absolutely robbed of a spot on the First Team All Conference.  That said, I don't think he had a legendary NESCAC season or certainly career.  He could easily emerge as the best basketball player to have ever played in our conference, but if that is the case, almost all of his greatness will have been established elsewhere.  And Praise the Lord for that!!!!) 

[jumpshot]

amHerststudent05 ----

Those of us" in the know" are clearly aware of why Williams cleaned the moose's clock in Salem ...hint: think about what was different about that game. We're not likely to tell ....you can figure it out --or ask amh63 who was at the game.

[booyakasha]

[/quote]

Then, a month later, Williams cleans our clocks.  Did the light go on for Williams somewhere during the course of those final 3 weeks of the season? 

[/quote]

Bingo. They were on another level for that stretch of games leading up to the final four.

[gordonmann]

What's the connection between Amherst and Moose? Inquiring clucky minds want to know.

[P'bearfan]

What's the connection between Amherst and Moose? Inquiring clucky minds want to know.

Nothing big.....everyone on this board is cool with it....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/11/18/amherst-college-faculty-wants-drop-controversial-lord-jeff-mascot/yqfqIP6hhLHvzZzM0D7MDM/story.html

[nescac1]

jumpshot, I for one am not sure what you are referring to ... maybe Toomey's uncharacteristically bad game?  He just didn't look right that day. 

I think it was mainly a matter of Williams coming together as a finally-fully-healthy team to play the most impressive few weeks of offensive basketball I've ever seen from a NESCAC squad (maybe the most impressive single offensive game was Williams-Guilford in Salem in 2010, but that was a matter of just really, really hot outside shooting by a historically good outside-shooting team).  The precision of the offensive execution by that 2014 Williams team in the final four games, on the other hand, in the NCAA tourney was truly next-level stuff, led by Mayer and Robinson both playing at elite levels.  Only an incredible effort by a defensively-incredible Whitewater squad was able to slow the Ephs down, it took the Ephs about 15 minutes to adjust to the pressure applied by Whitewater on the perimeter and by that point the hole they dug themselves into was BARELY too steep to overcome.  Of the Final Fours I've seen, by the way, the 2014 FF had the best talent across the board: four really, really good, very experienced teams playing (other than Amherst) at a very high level at Salem.  That Illinois Wesleyan squad could have easily won a title some other years (including 2015 I'd say), and they were the third-best team at Salem. 

While I do think the 2013 LJ team (the most talented overall LJ squad, in my view), is very close in talent to 2014 Williams, I think the Ephs, featuring THREE all-Americans in the front-court including two of the most talented players on offensive we've ever seen in NESCAC, plus Wohl and Rooke-Ley, two very talented players who would go on to be all-NESCAC guys the next season before embarking on professional hoops careers, was a truly dynamite top five (even if Greenman supplanted Rooke-Ley after his injury, Rooke-Ley was clearly the better overall player).  The next three dudes on each team (Kilcullen/Aronowitz/Greenman vs. Green/Pollack/Kalema) are pretty close, in my estimation, but the Eph starting five gets the edge due to that ridiculous frontcourt.  Honestly, though, 2013 and 2007-08 Amherst, and 2003, 2010 and 2014 Williams, are all very, very closely grouped. 

As for the moose, Gordon, I believe a stray moose wandered onto the Amherst campus during the heart of the debate on the mascot issue, hence its emergence as an alternative.  Plus, a whimsical animal mascot (purple meese!) fits right in with the rest of the NESCAC elephants, purple cows, polar bears, camels, and so on ...  personally, I think Lord Jeff is a stupid mascot anyway, and one that makes no sense whatsoever for women's teams, plus the fact that he tried to commit genocide or whatnot.  His days as the Amherst mascot are just about over, no doubt. 

[AmherstStudent05]

 
While I do think the 2013 LJ team (the most talented overall LJ squad, in my view), is very close in talent to 2014 Williams, I think the Ephs, featuring THREE all-Americans in the front-court including two of the most talented players on offensive we've ever seen in NESCAC, plus Wohl and Rooke-Ley, two very talented players who would go on to be all-NESCAC guys the next season before embarking on professional hoops careers, was a truly dynamite top five (even if Greenman supplanted Rooke-Ley after his injury, Rooke-Ley was clearly the better overall player). 

I don't think Epley was ever an All-American, was he?  I know he was never even a first-team All-NESCAC.  He didn't make any All-NESCAC team in 2014 and, frankly, I think that was appropriate.  Frankly, he did not have a great senior season overall, especially relative to expectations following his fine junior campaign. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

jumpshot, I for one am not sure what you are referring to ... maybe Toomey's uncharacteristically bad game?  He just didn't look right that day. 

I think it was mainly a matter of Williams coming together as a finally-fully-healthy team to play the most impressive few weeks of offensive basketball I've ever seen from a NESCAC squad (maybe the most impressive single offensive game was Williams-Guilford in Salem in 2010, but that was a matter of just really, really hot outside shooting by a historically good outside-shooting team).  The precision of the offensive execution by that 2014 Williams team in the final four games, on the other hand, in the NCAA tourney was truly next-level stuff, led by Mayer and Robinson both playing at elite levels.  Only an incredible effort by a defensively-incredible Whitewater squad was able to slow the Ephs down, it took the Ephs about 15 minutes to adjust to the pressure applied by Whitewater on the perimeter and by that point the hole they dug themselves into was BARELY too steep to overcome.  Of the Final Fours I've seen, by the way, the 2014 FF had the best talent across the board: four really, really good, very experienced teams playing (other than Amherst) at a very high level at Salem.  That Illinois Wesleyan squad could have easily won a title some other years (including 2015 I'd say), and they were the third-best team at Salem. 

While I do think the 2013 LJ team (the most talented overall LJ squad, in my view), is very close in talent to 2014 Williams, I think the Ephs, featuring THREE all-Americans in the front-court including two of the most talented players on offensive we've ever seen in NESCAC, plus Wohl and Rooke-Ley, two very talented players who would go on to be all-NESCAC guys the next season before embarking on professional hoops careers, was a truly dynamite top five (even if Greenman supplanted Rooke-Ley after his injury, Rooke-Ley was clearly the better overall player).  The next three dudes on each team (Kilcullen/Aronowitz/Greenman vs. Green/Pollack/Kalema) are pretty close, in my estimation, but the Eph starting five gets the edge due to that ridiculous frontcourt.  Honestly, though, 2013 and 2007-08 Amherst, and 2003, 2010 and 2014 Williams, are all very, very closely grouped. 

As for the moose, Gordon, I believe a stray moose wandered onto the Amherst campus during the heart of the debate on the mascot issue, hence its emergence as an alternative.  Plus, a whimsical animal mascot (purple meese!) fits right in with the rest of the NESCAC elephants, purple cows, polar bears, camels, and so on ...  personally, I think Lord Jeff is a stupid mascot anyway, and one that makes no sense whatsoever for women's teams, plus the fact that he tried to commit genocide or whatnot.  His days as the Amherst mascot are just about over, no doubt.

Since Williams was not in Salem that year, maybe you omitted 2006 (you did say of the FFs you had seen).  The balance (and talent) that year was amazing: VA Wesleyan, Wittenberg, IL Wesleyan, and Amherst.  The widest margin in any of the four games (they still had a 3rd place game then) was FOUR points!  It truly could have been a title by any of the four teams; and if they re-played it I'd bet on a different champ.  All four teams had an AA, and IWU had two.

[AmherstStudent05]

jumpshot, I for one am not sure what you are referring to ... maybe Toomey's uncharacteristically bad game?  He just didn't look right that day. 

I think it was mainly a matter of Williams coming together as a finally-fully-healthy team to play the most impressive few weeks of offensive basketball I've ever seen from a NESCAC squad (maybe the most impressive single offensive game was Williams-Guilford in Salem in 2010, but that was a matter of just really, really hot outside shooting by a historically good outside-shooting team).  The precision of the offensive execution by that 2014 Williams team in the final four games, on the other hand, in the NCAA tourney was truly next-level stuff, led by Mayer and Robinson both playing at elite levels.  Only an incredible effort by a defensively-incredible Whitewater squad was able to slow the Ephs down, it took the Ephs about 15 minutes to adjust to the pressure applied by Whitewater on the perimeter and by that point the hole they dug themselves into was BARELY too steep to overcome.  Of the Final Fours I've seen, by the way, the 2014 FF had the best talent across the board: four really, really good, very experienced teams playing (other than Amherst) at a very high level at Salem.  That Illinois Wesleyan squad could have easily won a title some other years (including 2015 I'd say), and they were the third-best team at Salem. 

While I do think the 2013 LJ team (the most talented overall LJ squad, in my view), is very close in talent to 2014 Williams, I think the Ephs, featuring THREE all-Americans in the front-court including two of the most talented players on offensive we've ever seen in NESCAC, plus Wohl and Rooke-Ley, two very talented players who would go on to be all-NESCAC guys the next season before embarking on professional hoops careers, was a truly dynamite top five (even if Greenman supplanted Rooke-Ley after his injury, Rooke-Ley was clearly the better overall player).  The next three dudes on each team (Kilcullen/Aronowitz/Greenman vs. Green/Pollack/Kalema) are pretty close, in my estimation, but the Eph starting five gets the edge due to that ridiculous frontcourt.  Honestly, though, 2013 and 2007-08 Amherst, and 2003, 2010 and 2014 Williams, are all very, very closely grouped. 

As for the moose, Gordon, I believe a stray moose wandered onto the Amherst campus during the heart of the debate on the mascot issue, hence its emergence as an alternative.  Plus, a whimsical animal mascot (purple meese!) fits right in with the rest of the NESCAC elephants, purple cows, polar bears, camels, and so on ...  personally, I think Lord Jeff is a stupid mascot anyway, and one that makes no sense whatsoever for women's teams, plus the fact that he tried to commit genocide or whatnot.  His days as the Amherst mascot are just about over, no doubt.

Since Williams was not in Salem that year, maybe you omitted 2006 (you did say of the FFs you had seen).  The balance (and talent) that year was amazing: VA Wesleyan, Wittenberg, IL Wesleyan, and Amherst.  The widest margin in any of the four games (they still had a 3rd place game then) was FOUR points!  It truly could have been a title by any of the four teams; and if they re-played it I'd bet on a different champ.  All four teams had an AA, and IWU had two.

I think 2007 has to be up there as well as Amherst and Virginia Wesleyan made return appearances to Salem and were joined by very strong teams from Wooster and Wash U. 

[booyakasha]

Bowdoin up 8 at half vs an inferior Bridgewater State team. Hays man with 19, BW guarding him like any other player, leaving him wide open for 3 consecutive threes. I doubt it will be as easy in Nescac play, but damn he's fun to watch put the ball in the hoop.

[booyakasha]

Hausman that is, iPhone autocorrected to hays man

[ECSUalum]

Congrats to the Lord Jeffs on a great game!! 3pt step back jumper with 2.5 sec remaining by Jayde Dawson to win it 65-68!!

[ECSUalum]

RIC and Wesleyan in OT 66-66!!

[7express]

RIC and Wesleyan in OT 66-66!!

Pathetic for Wesleyan!