MBB: NESCAC

[AmherstStudent05]

I was in the process of responding to this Amherst/Babson thing, but amh63 beat me to it.  I will still throw my two cents in.

I have to say I am quite surprised and puzzled by Dave's suggestion that there is consensus that Amherst certainly would have lost to Babson had Flannery been 100% for the whole game.  With due respect, I don't see how anyone could endorse such a ridiculous statement.  Amherst won that game by 12 points.  And, earlier in the season, we beat Babson and a fully healthy Flannery at their place (albeit in 2OT).

Now, did Amherst catch an unfortunate break with the timing of Flannery's injury? No question about it (just as we did with Tufts and Pace).  Do I concede that the outcome of the game might have been different had Flannery not been hurt?  Obviously we can never know, but yes, I accept that someone of Flannery's ability could have made the difference.  But I still have no idea how anyone -- let alone everyone Dave has ever talked to on this subject -- could be certain that Flannery's health would have changed the outcome of that Sweet 16 contest.

Again, Flannery did play a lot of minutes in that game and he was actually quite active in the first half before re-aggravating his injury.  The first half was neck and neck (just as the game back in December was).  Also, while I have no doubt that Babson improved since December, so did Amherst!  And while Babson's record may have improved as the season went on, I am sure that had something to do with the fact that they stopped playing NESCAC teams.

Look, I don't mean this as a knock on Babson.  Coach Brennan has done an outstanding job with that program, and his results, both generally and against Amherst specifically (particularly at LeFrak) speak for themselves.  And, as I said, they were undeniably hurt by Flannery's injury.  But the idea that Amherst absolutely needed that unfortunate break to advance strikes me as utter rubbish.   

[amh70]

Well said.

[pg04]

amH63:

I'll bite in the interest of truth .... The Ephs have had a higher strength of schedule annually for the past two decades than the hamster and many other schools. Another manufactured, fictional "painting" as only those in the Washington, D.C. area can utter....Spare us ....

Unsurprisingly, I find this claim to be just about ........ IMPOSSIBLE to believe.  Do you have any data to back this claim up.  I went on Massey and found that this year Amherst's had the 50th ranked SoS and Williams was 127.  Now, I want to say up front that (i) I don't necessarily treat Massey as Gospel, and (ii) I don't believe this to be an apples to apples comparison -- I suspect that Amherst is getting the benefit of its postseason schedule in this ranking, whereas what I really want is a comparison of their respective regular season schedules.

Still, I find it hard to believe that Williams consistently plays a harder schedule than Amherst.  We consistently play teams that are typically pretty strong -- Babson, E Conn, RIC (not strong this year), Brandeis (not strong the past couple of years) -- teams that Williams doesn't play.  I am not saying Williams plays a cupcake schedule, but, again, I highly doubt it is consistently stronger than ours the past few years.

Would be grateful for any better data to prove me wrong (or, better yet, right!).

According to Knightslappy's calculations: http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-regional-rankings-data/

Williams did end up with an almost negligibly higher SOS this year (.566 vs. .564) using the NCAA math. It's a small difference, and I don't know what it would be in previous years, since the point of this argument is over the years, but I thought I'd add this one small bit and not really help either side of the argument one bit! 

[middhoops]

I watched Joey Flannery play at least 8 games this year.  To one degree or another he took over every one of them except when he was injured in the tourney game.  Amherst may well have still won the game.  But it would have been a very different game.
Amherst has no one to stop a healthy Flannery and in big games you see why he's a first team All American.

Looking at next season, Babson and Amherst are going to be rated in the top 5, I suspect.  They are constructed very differently.
Being a NESCAC guy, I'd bet on Amherst winning a razor close game.  In that game, however, I'd expect Flannery to score over 30.
In double OT?   40.

[P'bearfan]

I watched Joey Flannery play at least 8 games this year.  To one degree or another he took over every one of them except when he was injured in the tourney game.  Amherst may well have still won the game.  But it would have been a very different game.
Amherst has no one to stop a healthy Flannery and in big games you see why he's a first team All American.

I agree that Flannery is a very special player.  When Bowdoin played them back in December Flannery finished the game with 21 points (second to the 30 points his teammate Bradley Jacks put up against us).  Surprisingly Flannery only shot 7-20 - perhaps proof that even he has an off night (well and maybe we played some decent defense against him as well).

[amh63]

A sort of different post.  A recent death has been reported in the Amherst basketball family.  Ken Howard, Amherst class of '66 passed away...on the eve of his 50th reunion.  He played both on the freshman and varsity teams.  He played against Old Guy in his days.  Old Guy has not related who bested who on the playing floor in what is now Coolidge Cage.  An actor and a teacher at Yale Drama School...he is known to many in the TV series, The White Shadow...he was the BB coach of a Long Island urban HS team.  Standing 6'5" plus, he played Thomas Jefferson on Broadway and won a Tony award.  He also served in leadership positions in the Actors Guild.
I hope posters here will not ding me for this post.

[polbear73]

+K amh63. Nice post about an accomplished NESCAC and Amherst alumnus. 

[magicman]

A sort of different post.  A recent death has been reported in the Amherst basketball family.  Ken Howard, Amherst class of '66 passed away...on the eve of his 50th reunion.  He played both on the freshman and varsity teams.  He played against Old Guy in his days.  Old Guy has not related who bested who on the playing floor in what is now Coolidge Cage.  An actor and a teacher at Yale Drama School...he is know to many in the TV series, The White Shadow...he was the BB coach of a Long Island urban HS team.  Standing 6'5" plus, he played Thomas Jefferson on Broadway and won a Tony award.  He also served in leadership positions in the Actors Guild.
I hope posters here will not ding me for this post.

amh63,
I was going to post about Ken Howard's passing but I got busy in my store and just came back to do so when I spotted your post. Always enjoyed the series he starred in... White Shadow and Crossing Jordan.

Here's a link to an article that was on msn.com about him:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/actor-ken-howard-sag-aftra-president-dies-at-71/ar-BBqQogx?ocid=DELLDHP

[Gregory Sager]

I vaguely remember Ken Howard in The White Shadow, but I'll always think of him as Ed Truck, Michael Scott's predecessor as Dunder Mifflin's Scranton branch manager, in The Office.

[amh63]

Magicman....thanks for the link! It fills in a number of things and clarifies things for me.  The White Shadow is based in L.A. And Ken played HS ball on Long Island.  He was a freshman in my senior year.  For many reasons I know a number of his classmates in the D.C.area and in the Pioneer Valley. I have seen him during Homecoming football games and when he was a visiting teacher in the Drama dept for a semester at Amherst several years back, I chatted with him wrt to Old Guy...truely.  Ken was gracious in his response while being respectful to an elder.
Have to give you a plus K.  After reading the write up via the link, my wife remembers her grade school close friend...who lives now in Florida... telling her that she was in the production of 1776 on Broadway...bit part crowd player...and met Ken Howard.  Small world story.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Read 'd-Mac' post wrt to his line of reasoning for supporting Babson.  Walked away from posting a response.  Joined my wife for an important event. Came back, read his post again.  It really needs a response!
First, the point is made that Babson was in a sort  of "rebuilding" period early in the season...adjusting to new players, etc..  The teams that they lost to during that period must have been all set.  Come on, All teams have to adjust to new mixes of players, etc. The teams that beat Babson did NOT have a 1st team all American to build around.
Second, the discount of the lost to Amherst at Tufts was due to the fact Flannery was not at 100 Percent and to support it you have a list of people that can say that Amherst would have lost if the star was 100 percent.  Really?  So when the game started, was Flannery at 95, 90, 80, lower?
Was he at least 90 percent when he fouled and injured himself in the first half?  Do remember he missed a number of shots before warming up later in the half.  How much was he from 100 percent when he came back in...50 percent?  It is always nice to talk with persons that can support your opinion.  In truth, I believe the Head Coach of Babson would not make that guarantee. 
Finally, the health of key players at critical points of the season are part of the game of BB.  Tufts, Colby, Middlebury, etc. all had injuries during the season.  Changes have to be made in lineups for many reasons, all the time...iat all levels of BB.
In contrast to your post, I point to your enjoyable interview with the HC of Tufts who lost the services of Pace.  He stated that he may decide to run with J&W.   I do not have to remind you what happened in that game.  The higher seeded team got blown out.  Anyone of your crowd predicted that outcome?
Enough said.

I'm not going to get into all this and the other post, because we talked about it for weeks. You are welcome to listen to my shows where it was brought up as well. I talked to a number of people not associated with Amherst who gave the opinion that a healthy Flannery has Babson in the final four. I stated it numerous times as my feeling on the show as well. We are rehashing old stuff. If you didn't hear it then, so be it.

As for your final statement... the higher seeded team was Tufts... so not sure why you are going on talking about the higher seed being blown out. Tufts was the higher seed because they finished #2 in the final regional rankings, they were hosting, and they were wearing their home whites (teams not higher ranked and actually hosting, wear road uniforms at home, believe it or not). As for the outcome, I would love to have seen JWU play a good game. From all accounts, they didn't. It would have at least been closer, though Tufts certainly showed they could play with JWU which was great to see to be honest.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Magicman....thanks for the link! It fills in a number of things and clarifies things for me.  The White Shadow is based in L.A. And Ken played HS ball on Long Island.  He was a freshman in my senior year.  For many reasons I know a number of his classmates in the D.C.area and in the Pioneer Valley. I have seen him during Homecoming football games and when he was a visiting teacher in the Drama dept for a semester at Amherst several years back, I chatted with him wrt to Old Guy...truely.  Ken was gracious in his response while being respectful to an elder.
Have to give you a plus K.  After reading the write up via the link, my wife remembers her grade school close friend...who lives now in Florida... telling her that she was in the production of 1776 on Broadway...bit part crowd player...and met Ken Howard.  Small world story.

I had never realized that 'White Shadow' was Ken Howard's nickname dating back to high school, where he was the only white player on his Long Island team.

I assume he was a pretty good player at Amherst if he was captain (though not as good as Coach Ken Reeves who was in the NBA when injury derailed his career ) - any one recall just how good a 'D3' (he predates D3) player he was?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I vaguely remember Ken Howard in The White Shadow, but I'll always think of him as Ed Truck, Michael Scott's predecessor as Dunder Mifflin's Scranton branch manager, in The Office.

Coach Reeves was the role Ken Howard was born to play (and he had to fight hard to get the show on the air - since it had a mostly black cast nearly 40 years ago, the network was quite adamant that it be a comedy).

[All you kids get off my front lawn! ] 

[AmherstStudent05]

Read 'd-Mac' post wrt to his line of reasoning for supporting Babson.  Walked away from posting a response.  Joined my wife for an important event. Came back, read his post again.  It really needs a response!
First, the point is made that Babson was in a sort  of "rebuilding" period early in the season...adjusting to new players, etc..  The teams that they lost to during that period must have been all set.  Come on, All teams have to adjust to new mixes of players, etc. The teams that beat Babson did NOT have a 1st team all American to build around.
Second, the discount of the lost to Amherst at Tufts was due to the fact Flannery was not at 100 Percent and to support it you have a list of people that can say that Amherst would have lost if the star was 100 percent.  Really?  So when the game started, was Flannery at 95, 90, 80, lower?
Was he at least 90 percent when he fouled and injured himself in the first half?  Do remember he missed a number of shots before warming up later in the half.  How much was he from 100 percent when he came back in...50 percent?  It is always nice to talk with persons that can support your opinion.  In truth, I believe the Head Coach of Babson would not make that guarantee. 
Finally, the health of key players at critical points of the season are part of the game of BB.  Tufts, Colby, Middlebury, etc. all had injuries during the season.  Changes have to be made in lineups for many reasons, all the time...iat all levels of BB.
In contrast to your post, I point to your enjoyable interview with the HC of Tufts who lost the services of Pace.  He stated that he may decide to run with J&W.   I do not have to remind you what happened in that game.  The higher seeded team got blown out.  Anyone of your crowd predicted that outcome?
Enough said.

I'm not going to get into all this and the other post, because we talked about it for weeks. You are welcome to listen to my shows where it was brought up as well. I talked to a number of people not associated with Amherst who gave the opinion that a healthy Flannery has Babson in the final four. I stated it numerous times as my feeling on the show as well. We are rehashing old stuff. If you didn't hear it then, so be it.

I have little idea what to make of this nonsense.  No one doubts that you said numerous times that Babson would certainly have made the Final Four had Flannery been 100% healthy.  The question is whether this opinion makes any sense.  Also, out of curiosity, if Tufts was #2 in the final Regional Rankings, who was number 1?  Was it Babson or was it Amherst?  Or, put another way, who wore the white, home, uniforms in the Amherst-Babson Sweet 16?  If Amherst was the higher seed, why is it so inconceivable that they MIGHT have beaten Babson even with a healthy Flannery?

[Smitty Oom]

Although I am just a MIAC guy who has only seen both Amherst and Babson play a couple times this year, I feel compelled to be an unbiased poster here. Amherst was a solid team this year and are very capable of beating Babson, even with Flannery (see their first meeting this year) They took BenU to the final possession in the final four, tough to argue that. Yes, I would have put my money on the Beavers with a healthy Flannery, but saying that the Beavers would have for sure won seems very naive.