MBB: NESCAC

[ronk]

  Since Ken Howard was a contemporary, I got out the ECAC media guide from our senior year and Howard is listed as one of five returning lettermen on a team that won 4 of 18 the previous season(played Harvard, Army, Holy Cross). 1st game in coming season wasn't until Dec 4.
  Old Guy is listed on Middlebury roster. Their gym capacity listed as 11,000. Is that for indoor football?
  Some future coaches on other ECAC rosters: Jim Boeheim-Syracuse, Jim Valvano-Rutgers, Bo Ryan-Wilkes; Coach K was only a plebe @ Army, so he wasn't listed until the next year; only the smallest schools at the time were allowed to use  freshmen on the varsity; everyone else had to play them on a frosh team.
  I've got the guides for 4 seasons('66-'69), so if anyone has any info requests, fire away.

[P'bearfan]

Since Ken Howard was a contemporary, I got out the ECAC media guide from our senior year and Howard is listed as one of five returning lettermen on a team that won 4 of 18 the previous season(played Harvard, Army, Holy Cross). 1st game in coming season wasn't until Dec 4.
  Old Guy is listed on Middlebury roster. Their gym capacity listed as 11,000. Is that for indoor football?
  Some future coaches on other ECAC rosters: Jim Boeheim-Syracuse, Jim Valvano-Rutgers, Bo Ryan-Wilkes; Coach K was only a plebe @ Army, so he wasn't listed until the next year; only the smallest schools at the time were allowed to use  freshmen on the varsity; everyone else had to play them on a frosh team.
  I've got the guides for 4 seasons('66-'69), so if anyone has any info requests, fire away.

Great post!  +k to you.

[amh63]

ronk...your post was most interesting and allows me to respond to the question of how good a player Ken Howard was at Amherst in a way that will not anger his classmates.  Plus K to you.
I never saw Ken play his freshman year.  If Ken was on the varsity team my senior year, he would have been the tallest player.  The varsity team played hard but was not very successful.  Amherst did get talented players in my days...remember an all NYC player.  The problem was that many of the tall and talented players decided to play Fraternity League BB..if you did not letter on the varsity.  The HC of BB was the main issue...not inspiring is a nice way to put it.  My frat team had the 6'9" center of our freshman team.  The 6'10" center the next year also went elsewhere.  My frat team had the captain of his Exeter prep school team at the three position at 6' 4".  The winner of the Frat league would scrimmage the varsity to prepare for the NE frat championship.  They had the nickname..The Animal House...due to being on frequent probations.    I digress.
In Summary...my guess is that Ken was a good solid player on a fair team.  His leadership would have  been an important factor in being selected Captain.

[toad22]

I recall one Ken Howard story, told to me by an Amherst teammate. Drinking was forbidden during the season in those days. A player on the team was observed drinking at a party by the coach. The coach, sorry, I can't remember his name, called the player in, and dismissed him from the team. Ken Howard went to see the coach, and told him that he had been drinking at the same party, so he would have to go too. Then, every other player marched in with the same story! A meeting was held with all parties, and a deal was reached where nobody got kick off the team. I'm pretty sure it is a true story. I have always admired Howard for his support of his teammates. Also, a darn good actor!

[JEFFFAN]

ronk...your post was most interesting and allows me to respond to the question of how good a player Ken Howard was at Amherst in a way that will not anger his classmates.  Plus K to you.
I never saw Ken play his freshman year.  If Ken was on the varsity team my senior year, he would have been the tallest player.  The varsity team played hard but was not very successful.  Amherst did get talented players in my days...remember an all NYC player.  The problem was that many of the tall and talented players decided to play Fraternity League BB..if you did not letter on the varsity.  The HC of BB was the main issue...not inspiring is a nice way to put it.  My frat team had the 6'9" center of our freshman team.  The 6'10" center the next year also went elsewhere.  My frat team had the captain of his Exeter prep school team at the three position at 6' 4".  The winner of the Frat league would scrimmage the varsity to prepare for the NE frat championship.  They had the nickname..The Animal House...due to being on frequent probations.    I digress.
In Summary...my guess is that Ken was a good solid player on a fair team.  His leadership would have  been an important factor in being selected Captain.

At the risk of aging all of us, if I am not mistaken freshmen were not permitted to play varsity sports on any college level as a frosh. So likely Howard would not have overlapped with AMH63 if one was a senior and one was a freshman.

[amh63]

JEFFFAN.....so true!  Amherst was all-male and Amherst played many schools that are now designated Div 1. Football was the king of Fall Sports and Swimming may have gotten the best student- athletes of the Winter sports...most HS-All- Americans...and Baseball was the Top Spring sport.  There was also a large number of multiple sport varsity participants. One studied hard and partied hard.  Road trips and toga type parties were not uncommon.  Varsity sport participation had too many restrictions for a number of my classmates. There was also the academic pressure....grad school and professional schools awaited almost everyone after graduation in those days.  I guess I am digressing again.  I may get in trouble with Coach Hixon here when I state that the frat with the best basketball talent in my days was also Coach Hixon's fraternity.  Of course it was long off probation when he became a member...I'm sure.

[middhoops]

Great story, Toad.
Was that a story line of a White Shadow episode?

[magicman]

At the risk of aging all of us, if I am not mistaken freshmen were not permitted to play varsity sports on any college level as a frosh. So likely Howard would not have overlapped with AMH63 if one was a senior and one was a freshman.

JEFFFAN,

ronk was correct when he stated that freshman could play at some of the smaller colleges. I was a freshman in college in 1965-66 at Potsdam State. That was the year that Lew Alcindor (before he became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) was a freshman at UCLA. He was not allowed to play on the varsity that year and UCLA which had won 2 straight National Championships didn't win the title in Alcindor's freshman year. Texas Western defeated Kentucky in 1966 to win the title. Had Alcindor been able to play as a freshman UCLA would probably have won 10 straight titles as they won 7 in a row from 1967 through 1973.

However at Potsdam State and all colleges that were considered D III schools (before they were designated as such by the NCAA) you could play on the varsity as a freshman. Potsdam State went to the NCAA tournament in 1966 because a freshman, on the team, Joe Topa, made a shot, with seconds left in regulation to send the game against Plattsburgh State into overtime. Then in the extra session Topa made the game winning free throws to secure the victory.

The freshman rule was overturned in 1968 allowing freshman to compete on the varsity in every sport except football and basketball. In 1972 the freshman restriction on football and basketball was lifted.     

[amh63]

Magicman....good stuff! Plus K.  Lots of info wrt times a half a century ago! Hope the younger posters are not turned off.  Yet, the songs and the Woodstock era keeps popping up in the media...Joplin, Hendrix, Dylan...Smiths, Van Morrisons...revival tours.  Where am I going?.
Watched several Div 1 games last night...several warm color teams advanced to the elite 8.  Bucket's UVA team and yes, Boeheim's Orangemen of upper NY state.  Both teams have NOT reached this level for many DECADES it appears.  Surprising to me!  Yes, the Times are a Changing!. 
In the post game shots of the young HC of UVA, there were also shots of his father, a former great BB coach who almost never comes to his son's games.  Both are connected to Un of Wisconsin- Stevens Point, a Div3 school that won national titles....like Bo Ryan at Wisconsin-WW.
Lots of bench players coming up with Big games.  Pundits pointing out the key roles of PGs and the inside play of big front court players.  In brief, elements of championship level BB are timeless and the same however you "label" them.  Yes, posters here know this...preaching to the choir.

[magicman]

Magicman....good stuff! Plus K.  Lots of info wrt times a half a century ago! Hope the younger posters are not turned off.  Yet, the songs and the Woodstock era keeps popping up in the media...Joplin, Hendrix, Dylan...Smiths, Van Morrisons...revival tours.  Where am I going?.
Watched several Div 1 games last night...several warm color teams advanced to the elite 8.  Bucket's UVA team and yes, Boeheim's Orangemen of upper NY state.  Both teams have NOT reached this level for many DECADES it appears.  Surprising to me!  Yes, the Times are a Changing!. 
In the post game shots of the young HC of UVA, there were also shots of his father, a former great BB coach who almost never comes to his son's games.  Both are connected to Un of Wisconsin- Stevens Point, a Div3 school that won national titles....like Bo Ryan at Wisconsin-WW.
Lots of bench players coming up with Big games.  Pundits pointing out the key roles of PGs and the inside play of big front court players.  In brief, elements of championship level BB are timeless and the same however you "label" them.  Yes, posters here know this...preaching to the choir.

amh63,

I must correct you on a couple of points or your revisionist history may become fact. While it's true that Virginia hasn't been to the Elite Eight in a few years (1995 was the last time) the Syracuse Orangemen have been there as recently as 2013.

Syracuse went to the Elite Eight and then on to the Final Four in 2013, losing to Michigan in the semifinals. Michigan then lost to Louisville in the championship game.

Syracuse also made it to the Elite Eight in 2012 when they beat Wisconsin 64-63 to advance. They lost to Ohio State in their bid to make the Final Four that year.

Syracuse also made the Elite Eight in 2003 which isn't really that  long ago. Certainly not "many DECADES" ago. That happened to be the year of Carmelo Anthony and the Orangemen not only made it to the Elite Eight, they won the National Championship that year.

Tony Bennett the head coach of Virginia and his father Dick Bennett were associated with the Division I school, University of Wisconsin–Green Bay. Dick Bennett did coach at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point from 1976 through 1985 but his son played for him from 1988-1992 and that was after Dick had moved on to UW-Green Bay. Tony played for his father for 4 years before getting drafted by the Charlotte Hornets. He spent 3 years in the NBA. Dick Bennett went on to coach at the University of Wisconsin after leaving Wisconsin-Green Bay and prior to Bo Ryan becoming the head coach of the Badgers.

Speaking of Bo Ryan he did not coach at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater. He was the coach of UW-Platteville. You were correct in that he won national titles. Four of them to be exact, while he was at UW-Plattville....1991-95-98-99.  UW-Stevens Point has won 4 national titles as well (2004-2005-2010-2015), but none of them came under Dick Bennett. When he was the coach at Stevens Point they were associated with the  NAIA and not the NCAA. He did have a runner up finish to the NAIA national championship in 1984.

Plus K back at you.    

[amh63]

Magicman...right as always!  Gosh my mind is scrambling info...too much folk/ hippie music...colliding with my wife's preferred classical Three Bs' of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven...she was a music major..in the background.  Too lazy to check my collection of Salem Final 4 Programs that list the Div3 National Champs and their coaches.
It is truely sad when I forgot that Syracuse was in Atlanta, Georgia in 2013!  That was when Aaron Toomey wore his Syracuse BB jersey when the Amherst team was introduced to the Div1 crowd and got a roar from the Orangemen fans.  Toomey's father went to Syracuse...the jersey was to honor/thank his father in his special way, I gather.  It was a surprise to his father.
I do remember trivial info with respect to why Syracuse is connected to Orange.  The area, like one part of present NYC was a colony off the Dutch and its ruling family that included the Prince of Orange.

[magicman]

Magicman...right as always!  Gosh my mind is scrambling info...too much folk/ hippie music...colliding with my wife's preferred classical Three Bs' of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven...she was a music major..in the background.  Too lazy to check my collection of Salem Final 4 Programs that list the Div3 National Champs and their coaches.
It is truely sad when I forgot that Syracue was in Atlanta, Georgia in 2013!  That was when Aaron Toomey wore his Syracuse BB jersey when the Amherst team was introduced to the Div1 crowd and got a roar from the Orangemen fans.  Toomey's father went to Syracuse...the jersey was to honor/thank his father in his special way, I gather.  It was a surprise to his father.
I do remember trival info with respect to why Syracuse is connected to Orange.  The area, like one part of present NYC was a colony off the Dutch and its ruling family that included the Prince of Orange.

I thought you would remember the 2013 Final Four since a certain college was there. LOL

[magicman]

I do remember trival info with respect to why Syracuse is connected to Orange.  The area, like one part of present NYC was a colony off the Dutch and its ruling family that included the Prince of Orange.

amh63,

Here's a link to the real reason that Syracuse teams are called the Orange. Surprisingly it has nothing to do with the Prince of Orange. The Dutch really had nothing to do with Syracuse as they were mainly in the Hudson River Valley from New York to Albany. French Jesuits were the first Europeans in the Syracuse area and started a short lived settlement there in the mid 1600's. The nickname "Orange" seems to be totally about colors. It does have a NESCAC link however with Hamilton College figuring into the decision. Read on:

http://archives.syr.edu/history/orange.html

[Gregory Sager]

Tony Bennett the head coach of Virginia and his father Dick Bennett were associated with the Division I school, University of Wisconsin–Green Bay. Dick Bennett did coach at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point from 1976 through 1985 but his son played for him from 1988-1992 and that was after Dick had moved on to UW-Green Bay. Tony played for his father for 4 years before getting drafted by the Charlotte Hornets. He spent 3 years in the NBA. Dick Bennett went on to coach at the University of Wisconsin after leaving Wisconsin-Green Bay and prior to Bo Ryan becoming the head coach of the Badgers.

Speaking of Bo Ryan he did not coach at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater. He was the coach of UW-Platteville. You were correct in that he won national titles. Four of them to be exact, while he was at UW-Plattville....1991-95-98-99.  UW-Stevens Point has won 4 national titles as well (2004-2005-2010-2015), but none of them came under Dick Bennett. When he was the coach at Stevens Point they were associated with the  NAIA and not the NCAA. He did have a runner up finish to the NAIA national championship in 1984.

It's probably a good thing that you corrected amh63, Prestidigitator, given that UW-Whitewater and UW-Platteville are archrivals. Not that WIACers usually hang out in this room, but if any of them did ... hoo boy, the fireworks ...

The 2004 and 2005 national titles for UW-Stevens Point were Bennett family affairs, too. In 1995-96 Dick Bennett's younger brother Jack took over the UWSP program that his brother had in large part built, and as head coach Jack was the architect of those 2004 and 2005 D3 national championship Pointers teams. His son Nick was a standout on those two teams, as he was named the 2004 D3 tourney's Most Outstanding Player and was an All-American in 2005.

Nick decided to follow his father, uncle, and cousin into the family business, and is now an assistant coach at -- wait for it -- UW-Whitewater, which brings the conversation full circle. He is, to the best of my knowledge, the only person who owns national championship rings from two different schools (UWSP as a player, UWW as an assistant coach).

The playing surface at UWSP's Quandt Fieldhouse is named Bennett Court in honor of the two brothers who were head coaches there.

[amh63]

One thing for sure, my mistakes are generating scads of info and pages to this board.
Gregory Sager...thanks for my new "label".  I will have a hard time pronouncing it .  In any case, The Bennett family is a very distinguish one in basketball!
Magicman...read your link on Syracuse's history wrt to the color Orange.  Wow, pink would not be a good color today for Syracuse, IMO. . Went back to some of my source material....an account of the Battle of Waterloo when the Prince of Orange participated in a minor way and the book "Oranges" by John McPhee.  Did you know that Bill Bradley the BB player from Princeton played BB at Oxford during his Rohdes Scholar days? Seems he finished his college thesis in Mr. McPhee's house.
Will put my connection of the Dutch to Syracuse's school color of choice in the same place as the romantic story of why Williams sports teams wear the colors gold/yellow and purple when the offical school color is only purple.  The story goes that during a sporting event between Amherst and Williams, a prominent lady suggested using a yellow ribbon..also a white ribbon?...to distinguish the players that were dressed in lots of purple.  The lady in the story was the American mother of Winston Churchill.  Amherst offical colors are Purple and White..as of now .