MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

Have to admit that the term "poaching" on this Nescac board is amusing to me.  In the convoluted discussion of transferring between divisions and the NCAA holding discussions on it is even stranger, imo.  Thoughts of "one and done" coming to the CAC
Adding to Jayhawk's comment on Amherst's prospects for next season, I believe there are solid prospects for the backcourt positions returning...both in size and talent...for PG and SG.  The players led their HS teams and practiced against and with the returning Amherst players.  They know what Coach Hixon wants on defense...they are quick and fast and can score inside and outside.  Several other roster spots available, I believe. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Have to admit that the term "poaching" on this Nescac board is amusing to me.  In the convoluted discussion of transferring between divisions and the NCAA holding discussions on it is even stranger, imo.  Thoughts of "one and done" coming to the CAC

Remember... it isn't the "NCAA" who holds discussions on these things, or decides them for that matter... it is the entire membership of Division III... presidents, ADs, conference commissioners. This is a DIII decision.

[Pat Coleman]

I would definitely agree that fears of poaching seem far-fetched. But I do think it would give an advantage to schools with graduate programs, just of the course of normal events.

[Old Guy]

A D3 SA with a year remaining looking to do graduate studies can only play in D3 if they stay at the current school. Should they want to transfer and go to another D3 school, they aren't allowed to participate in sports.

If they transfer to another division, they are welcome to play.

The bill was in front of DIII this last January and it was shot down rather overwhelmingly.

Per recruiting rules, DIII coaches are not allowed to talk to SAs if they are at a school and playing. The student has to release him/herself from said school and present that release to other coaches to then allow those coaches to talk to them.

The worry about graduates is that DIII coaches would target seniors with eligibility left and try and bolster their teams with one-year students and possibly steal those students away from other schools... while bolstering their chances.

The percentage of DIII SAs who then become graduate students who play another year apparently is VERY low, but I don't have the numbers on me. I can ask around for the particulars for what was debated. I know it was expected to be voted down, but I believe it was voted down by a bigger margin than anticipated. Too many people, I feel, are paranoid.

Wesleyan always seems to have a couple of graduate students on their football team  - just one this past year (I couldn't find rosters from previous years). That gives Wes a slight advantage, I guess, though hardly a significant factor. But take a player like Nick Lynch if he is qualified for another year of eligibility. As NESCAC1 points out, his decision involves delaying the rest of his life for a season of sports. For Midd students, it usually has involved dropping out of school for a semester so that when they come back they still have credits to earn. If you can do a grad year at your own institution, you can finish in the normal sequence of years and at the same time get on with your life taking graduate courses (especially if the master's program aligns with your ambition). Easier decision.

[NEhoops]

The schools without grad programs would be at a huge disadvantage if you could transfer D3 to D3 for a fifth year.

"Poaching" would clearly be taking place, particularly in the NESCAC, because the transfer deadline is so close to the end of the season. The players in most cases need to know they are leaving before the season starts. 

In D1, regarding all transfer types, they have time after the season to assess their situation and reach out to and/or makes themselves available to other schools.   

[ronk]

I would definitely agree that fears of poaching seem far-fetched. But I do think it would give an advantage to schools with graduate programs, just of the course of normal events.

Still, I don't see the intrinsic difference from the other "advantages"(endowments,cheaper public tuitions, etc.), realizing that Scranton could be 1 of those benefitting institutions with a graduate school). 

[P'bearfan]

The schools without grad programs would be at a huge disadvantage if you could transfer D3 to D3 for a fifth year.

"Poaching" would clearly be taking place, particularly in the NESCAC, because the transfer deadline is so close to the end of the season. The players in most cases need to know they are leaving before the season starts. 

In D1, regarding all transfer types, they have time after the season to assess their situation and reach out to and/or makes themselves available to other schools.

Have a hard time seeing large numbers of NESCAC players transferring to other D3 programs for a fifth year.  In order to have a fifth year you needed to sit out a season - that most likely means an injury.   In the NESCAC, in order to preserve a year of eligibility you also have to withdraw from school.  So now you're in the situation where instead of getting a degree from Bowdoin, Amherst, Williams etc you're going to earn a degree from where?  There are very few D3 schools with similar academic profiles - and even fewer with good basketball programs.   How many of those coaches are going to take a player with just one year of eligibility?  Seems like this list gets small very quickly.

The other option is that the player decides not to play one year and remains in school to receive his degree on time.  Can't imagine many coaches at other schools are going to be too interested in a player who just opted out one season.

When my son was injured at the beginning of his sophomore season many people asked if he was going to red shirt.  I just laughed and explained that he was on the 4 year program.  He came to Bowdoin for the education and the chance to play ball.  It was a package deal.  I don't think that mindset is uncommon.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Interesting.  One issue unique to D3: it would certainly give a huge advantage to schools who have grad programs vs. those who don't, which isn't an issue in D1 where just about every school, essentially, offers graduate degrees.  In NESCAC, for example, Wesleyan and Tufts would certainly have an advantage over their peers, none of whom have any substantial graduate programs.

Unless they've changed it, the D1 rule requires that you enter a grad program at your new school that the old school doesn't offer.  That does pose some challenges for enrollment and which schools are available for grad transfers - it means less because they're on scholarship and who cares if they take classes they don't want or need.

It would present some real challenges for d3 in that some schools don't have grad programs.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Mike Greenman is graduating on time this year and will be doing grad work at Williams while playing next year.

[nescac1]

That has never happened before at Williams Ryan and, while possible, would surprise me.  The only program he could enroll in is the tiny two year Master's program in Art History. Which would mean he's on campus another two years.  There is also a development economics program but I believe that is exclusively for experienced diplomats. 

[toad22]

Greenman was out of school for winter study and second semester last year. He is now a first semester senior. He will complete his studies after winter study next year, and be able to compete for 60 more days after the completion of those studies. This gets him through the end of the d3 season, even if they go to the final 4. Several Ephs have done this in the past, but none have been in a graduate program. As Nescac1 said, Williams only has two, very small graduate programs, neither of which 99% of Williams undergraduate students would qualify for.

[Gregory Sager]

I would definitely agree that fears of poaching seem far-fetched. But I do think it would give an advantage to schools with graduate programs, just of the course of normal events.

Still, I don't see the intrinsic difference from the other "advantages"(endowments,cheaper public tuitions, etc.), realizing that Scranton could be 1 of those benefitting institutions with a graduate school). 

Those other advantages of which you speak, ronk, are institutionally self-contained; for the most part they're not subject to outside forces. Even if a stingier state budget forces a tuition increase at that state's public colleges and universities, it's still going to be a lot cheaper to attend a public school in that state than a private school.

On the other hand, institutions that have graduate programs don't necessarily have a self-contained advantage, because grad-student eligibility is subject to outside forces. A good example are the MIAC schools, since the MIAC has a rule prohibiting graduate students from participating in sports that are sponsored by that league. The MIAC can't do anything about whether or not Hamline charges more than does Gustavus Adolphus, or vice-versa, or the fact that St. Olaf has an endowment that's almost nine times the size of the St. Mary's endowment (and thus, presumably, the Oles have a lot more academic scholarship money available). But the league can -- and does -- create an even playing field in the grad-student category by prohibiting them outright from participating in MIAC sports.

Beyond that, an institution can self-restrict by choosing not to allow grad students to participate in its intercollegiate sports, even if there's no outside authority preventing it from doing so. On the other hand, an institution can't self-restrict by, say, charging student-athletes a higher tuition or by keeping them from using academic scholarship money provided for by endowment funds.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Greenman was out of school for winter study and second semester last year. He is now a first semester senior. He will complete his studies after winter study next year, and be able to compete for 60 more days after the completion of those studies. This gets him through the end of the d3 season, even if they go to the final 4. Several Ephs have done this in the past, but none have been in a graduate program. As Nescac1 said, Williams only has two, very small graduate programs, neither of which 99% of Williams undergraduate students would qualify for.

Ok, that makes sense.  I tried to clarify a couple times when I talked to them before Salem, but I guess I didn't ask the question correctly.  I was thrown off because he said he had to be in DC the day after the championship game for a class "in order to graduate," but if it's a spring requirement, it still makes sense.

[Bucket]

South Carolina needed Willy Workman last night. At least for 3 seconds.

[Old Guy]

South Carolina needed Willy Workman last night. At least for 3 seconds.

Why coaches don't teach Workman's technique is beyond me. The act of surprise: shoot the ball immediately before anyone on the blocks is set. One of our guys on the low block was hitching up his socks when the ball was caroming back to the dastardly Willy. 

[grabtherim]

South Carolina needed Willy Workman last night. At least for 3 seconds.

Why coaches don't teach Workman's technique is beyond me. The act of surprise: shoot the ball immediately before anyone on the blocks is set. One of our guys on the low block was hitching up his socks when the ball was caroming back to the dastardly Willy.

There are some things in life you never get over.  They replay in slo-mo in your head over and over again.  Willy at Pepin and the last 5 minutes or so versus St. Thomas in the 2010 Final Four.  Thanks for reminding me Bucket.  What a pal...