MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

Cards Fan.....Dawson was Not Amherst's best player by a long shot, IMO.  Having said that, Amherst is a much better Team this season with a high up side when the younger players get more experience on the defensive side.  The newer players have the offensive talent and shown that to date.

Searching for College basketball to watch, I was capitivated by specials on TV on Doctor J and last night on the Olympic Dream Team that won the Gold Medal in Spain in 1992.  The 1992 Dream Team....the first USA team with US NBA players...all ALL-Stars plus one college star from Duke...Lattner.  Many memories for me. The 1992 Dream Team has an unique Amherst connection.  The key doctor for the Dream Team....also the Orthopetic Doctor for the LA Lakers and LA Hockey Kings...is a classmate.  In 1993, at our 30th Class reunion, he presented a slide show and gave some inside stories...one in particular wrt Jordon's golf abilities.  The team had a long stay in Monaco for practice games and some R&R, including golf.  The host forthe team is an Amherst alum.  The son of Grace Kelly and the present Prince of Monaco...a fine soccer player at Amherst and a great supporter of Olympic sports and a sports fan, period.  A neighbor's son was a soccer teammate of the Prince at Amherst and several of my kids have met the Prince...when he would come back to Western Mass for some " Personnel R&R" out of the spotlight.

[jumpshot]

momMoth63 —-

You should know that the original "Dream Team" was the 1960 US basketball team that won the Gold Medal in Rome with Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Bob Boozer, Terry Dischinger, among others.

[jumpshot]

—-all,of course, were college players not having turned pro yet.

[Old Guy]

Serious question for Amherst fans - do you think this Amherst team is doing better or worse with the loss of Jayde Dawson? Though he was your best player all around, from what I saw last year, he was NOT clutch. Once the team would go down late, instead of stepping up, calming everyone down, and icing the game, he would begin to shoot rapid fire. I see this team as more balanced, with no one who will begin to throw the game away at the end, because everyone can trust everyone, not just themselves, to take the last shot.

Think we should let Dawson to figuratively rest in peace. He's gone. What a lightning rod he was last year for any bad thing, any loss, for Amherst: "he's not a point guard," "he shoots too much," "he's selfish — just look at those yellow shoes!" "Not a team player," "It's all his fault!" After three decades, you'd think Hixon might get some credit for knowing how to best deploy his players. Always felt there might have been racial undertones to the incessant criticism. 

[nescac1]

Old Guy, agreed that it's time to drop the Dawson criticism.  But I'm not sure the racial undertone theory is fair.  Dawson was under a massive spotlight from Day 1 at Amherst.  He was a highly-touted D1 scholarship transfer who was hyped quite a bit in the preseason by some of the Amherst partisans -- not for no reason, he had a tremendous combination of size, strength and speed for his position.  He was also tasked with replacing Aaron Toomey, arguably the greatest Amherst player ever.  And shoot-first point guards are always divisive in hoops circles.  Think Russell Westbrook, or heck, for that matter, Toomey, a more talented and productive version of Dawson whose true value - despite his incredible success - was endlessly debated here back in the day.

Amherst as a team had a successful three years with Dawson as a heavily-featured guy in two of them - three NCAA appearances including a Final Four, albeit no NESCAC titles.  But that followed on an insanely successful stretch  - three NESCAC titles, two final fours, one national title.  So again, no way to really live up to that, from a team perspective either. 

Amherst may or may not be better without Jayde, but in my view it's premature to assess either way until the FKAJ's play at least one top-25 caliber team.  In all events the three Amherst frosh in the rotation are very talented and are already helping the team immensely, and that obviously has nothing to do with Jayde's departure.  The Amherst schedule is really back-loaded this year, with Midd, Wesleyan x2, Williams x2, Tufts and Hamilton all packed into the last month of the season (plus two Maine trips, which are never terribly fun).  Amherst may have a very good record before that stretch without really knowing JUST how good they will end up being.

[nescac1]

While waiting for games to resume, thought I'd post my top ten most memorable Williams victories (since I've been following the team).   Unsurprisingly, an Amherst-heavy list.

1. 2014 Final Four win vs. Amherst -- destroying a favored Amherst team in Salem is hard to top.  Probably the best overall game I've seen a Williams team play, a nearly perfect performance.
2. 2010 Final Four win vs. Guilford -- a ridiculous amount of combined invidiual talent on the floor and a great offensive showdown.  Williams was firing on all cylinders, hitting 16-28 from 3, many from WAY downtown. 
3. 2004 win at Holy Cross -- the big three of Coffin, Crotty and Abba put on show to stun a solid D1 team on the road.  Such a fun game and a great fan turnout on the road. 
4. 2003 National Title game vs. Gustavus Adolphus -- the biggest stakes and a dramatic finish, but a pretty choppy game overall
5. 2004 Final Four win vs. Amherst -- tremendous back-and-forth game, Ephs felt fortunate to pull that one out
6. 2004 regular season OT win vs. Amherst -- the Tucker Kain game
7. 2017 Elite 8 vs. Middlebury - best win of the App era so far
8. 1995 NCAA game at UMass Dartmouth -- John Botti steals the ball and scores for the win in karmic payback
9. 2003 Elite 8 vs. Amherst -- another game where Williams was firing on all cylinders, could not miss from anywhere
10. 2007 NESCAC championship at Amherst -- Chris Shalvoy goes off for a stunning upset on the road vs. the future national champs

Honorable mention: 2003 Final Four vs. Wooster, 1997 Sweet 16 vs. Richard Stockton (Matt Hunt vs. Carl Cochrane), 1997 Elite 8 vs. Rowan -- Williams gets payback vs. Rowan to clinch first Final Four bid, 2010 NESCAC title game vs. Middlebury, 2011 Elite 8 vs. Amherst (bittersweet though because of Troy's broken hand), 2015 regular season vs. Amherst (Ryan Kilcullen buzzer-beater), 2003 NESCAC title win at Amherst, 2004 NESCAC title win vs. Amherst, 2013 NESCAC semi-final OT win vs. Middlebury. 

And the most heartbreaking losses: 2014 national title game (obviously, almost impossible to top, had it ended five seconds sooner would have been number one on the win list), 2004 title game (very close behind), 1996 Sweet 16 loss at Rowan (an absolutely loaded Williams team was in position to beat a ridiculously-talented Rowan squad until Geoff Chapin had to leave for a spell with a migraine), 2011 Final Four vs. Wooster (just brutal on so many levels, a game Williams never should have lost), 2013 last-second NESCAC title loss to Amherst, 2010 title game, 2013 Elite 8 vs. St. Thomas (St. Thomas simply could not miss in that one), 1995 NCAA loss to Wilkes.     

[JEFFFAN]

Serious question for Amherst fans - do you think this Amherst team is doing better or worse with the loss of Jayde Dawson? Though he was your best player all around, from what I saw last year, he was NOT clutch. Once the team would go down late, instead of stepping up, calming everyone down, and icing the game, he would begin to shoot rapid fire. I see this team as more balanced, with no one who will begin to throw the game away at the end, because everyone can trust everyone, not just themselves, to take the last shot.

Its a good question, Cards Fan, and my answer is "I am not sure yet".  The pre-NESCAC season is equivalent to the pre-season NFL - meaningless in the whole scheme of the season.   I am generally pleased with where the team is right now, acknowledging that from the outset I considered this to be a transition season.   A team cannot lose a senior class like that one and not feel the impact for a season or two, hopefully just one season.

I liked Dawson as a player but he did play more of an individualistic game in a system not necessarily built for that.   One could argue that Toomey was the individualistic player that I just called Dawson, but Toomey was a lights-out shooter which Dawson was not.   This team will miss his excellent defense and attacking style, but I didn't think that he brought a whole lot more to the table other than those (important) attributes.

Ask again in a month!

[amh63]

What a strange comment!...Old Guy.   "Racial undertones"??  Leave it as a result of VT Snow Blindness and not a political "blindness".

[grabtherim]

Old Guy should get a pass because he's proven many times over that he deserves respect, but channeling the late great Dick Enberg, not in the way he would use this phrase:  OH MY!!   In my view, absent OG providing anything to justify what he alleges or anything I have read here, I have no idea where this comes from.   

[Old Guy]

What a strange comment!...Old Guy.   "Racial undertones"??  Leave it as a result of VT Snow Blindness and not a political "blindness".

Experience should have taught me not to wade into these waters. Note the qualifiers in my statement: "might have been" . . . "undertones" My goal, I guess, was to provoke thought. Is it possible race factored in? I don't remember a player who was a lightning rod for discussion the way Dawson was (maybe Sha Brown?). That's all. I asked you to think about it. But the response seems to be immediate rejection, condescension ("snow blindness") and incredulity ("Oh My!") at the mere suggestion of the possibility. Okay.

If anyone would like to discuss this matter seriously (undefensively) off-line (or over a beer, grabtherim, at 2Bros), I'm game.

[JEFFFAN]

As the topic has been raised ... I dont see the racial undertones or bias in opinions about Dawson.  If that were the case, why would there not be similar comments about David George, much heralded coming into Amherst yet someone who played the seventh most minutes per game his junior and senior years? Would there not be similar lightning rod comments about George?   The reality of Dawson is that he was a good player on a good team, not much more and certainly not much less.  He was not a great outside shooter (41% from field); a decent (35.9%) shooter from three-point range; and a mediocre free throw shooter (71%).   Not great, not bad, not special.

If there is a legitimate criticism of him as a point guard it would be that his assist/turnover ratio was 1.2/1, not very strong for a point guard.   (Toomey, who was not solely a point guard, was at 2.6/1 for his senior year.)  In a look at top assist/turnover numbers in the NESCAC last year, Dawson's ratio would have ranked him 21st out of players in the NESCAC who played more than 600 minutes for the season.   The criticisms of Dawson would likely circle around a point guard who wasn't truly a point guard - more of a quasi PG and SG - with performance indices to suggest that he was not very effective at the point.

Anyway .... just look at the numbers and forget race.   I don't think the latter has anything to do with how Dawson is viewed by Amherst fans.

[grabtherim]

In my mind, the reactions you reference are due to the fact that your "might have been"  never remotely crossed my mind and apparently the same can be said for others here.  Not really a big deal. Of course you are 100% correct in that sensitivity is heightened and egg shells have to be walked on anytime race is alleged or denied as a factor in anything.  It's a very slippery slope.  Enough of that.  Hope to take you up on a beer (or 2-3)sometime this season.       

What a strange comment!...Old Guy.   "Racial undertones"??  Leave it as a result of VT Snow Blindness and not a political "blindness".

Experience should have taught me not to wade into these waters. Note the qualifiers in my statement: "might have been" . . . "undertones" My goal, I guess, was to provoke thought. Is it possible race factored in? I don't remember a player who was a lightning rod for discussion the way Dawson was (maybe Sha Brown?). That's all. I asked you to think about it. But the response seems to be immediate rejection, condescension ("snow blindness") and incredulity ("Oh My!") at the mere suggestion of the possibility. Okay.

If anyone would like to discuss this matter seriously (undefensively) off-line (or over a beer, grabtherim, at 2Bros), I'm game.

[ContinentalDomer]

Ummm, I heard "The Logo" was a decent player . . . just sayin'

momMoth63 —-

You should know that the original "Dream Team" was the 1960 US basketball team that won the Gold Medal in Rome with Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Bob Boozer, Terry Dischinger, among others.

[grabtherim]

Oscar and West on the same team is the best pairing of guards ever. Insert either in their prime in a game in any era and they would shine.  As great as West was, the Big O is one of the few on the Mt. Rushmore of Hoops.  He did everything except play on a great team until he was way past his prime, and the Bucks brought him in to help Jabbar win a title.  It worked...

Ummm, I heard "The Logo" was a decent player . . . just sayin'

momMoth63 —-

You should know that the original "Dream Team" was the 1960 US basketball team that won the Gold Medal in Rome with Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas, Walt Bellamy, Bob Boozer, Terry Dischinger, among others.

[Old Guy]

As the topic has been raised ... I dont see the racial undertones or bias in opinions about Dawson.  If that were the case, why would there not be similar comments about David George, much heralded coming into Amherst yet someone who played the seventh most minutes per game his junior and senior years? Would there not be similar lightning rod comments about George?   The reality of Dawson is that he was a good player on a good team, not much more and certainly not much less.  He was not a great outside shooter (41% from field); a decent (35.9%) shooter from three-point range; and a mediocre free throw shooter (71%).   Not great, not bad, not special.

If there is a legitimate criticism of him as a point guard it would be that his assist/turnover ratio was 1.2/1, not very strong for a point guard.   (Toomey, who was not solely a point guard, was at 2.6/1 for his senior year.)  In a look at top assist/turnover numbers in the NESCAC last year, Dawson's ratio would have ranked him 21st out of players in the NESCAC who played more than 600 minutes for the season.   The criticisms of Dawson would likely circle around a point guard who wasn't truly a point guard - more of a quasi PG and SG - with performance indices to suggest that he was not very effective at the point.

Anyway .... just look at the numbers and forget race.   I don't think the latter has anything to do with how Dawson is viewed by Amherst fans.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. I meant not to single out Amherst fans. It's not about numbers, stats. David George is not comparable. He was a complementary player. Dawson was the POINT, had the ball in his hands all the time — he was often the focus of the offense. The truth is Amherst had a disappointing season (17-8), well below expectations, though they made the tourney (and lost in the first round). Many posters wrote that Dawson's inadequacies were responsible, and his inadequacies fed a racial stereotype: he was flashy, selfish, shot too much, was undependable in the "clutch," wore those yellow shoes! It's not like in these bastions of liberal thought (NESCAC), racism is inconceivable. Racism is subtle now, expressed in "undertones," implications, often even unconsciously. The bottom line is that I think Dawson received more criticism for his play last year (and look, even this year!) than he would have were he white (Bates' Safford comes to mind). It's a matter of degrees. That's all I was suggesting.