MBB: NESCAC

[amh63]

PolarBear16.....yes the last two matches in the CAC Tourny have been CLOSE ones.  Following the Superman theme, I guess JMac must be Superman when it comes to Bowdoin vs Amherst in LeFrak.  Take heart,  JMac is a senior.  The last two games have been exciting battles and indicate that your PolarBears have talented players with many returning next year.  For warned, there is another FY Amherst player, presently injured,  ready to step in for JMacnext season...his younger brother.

[JEFFFAN]

I really did think that Bowdoin was going to pull off the upset Saturday, and they came about as close as possible to doing it. Amherst is Bowdoin basketball's kryptonite. The Mammoths have now bounced Bowdoin from the NESCAC tournament the last three times Bowdoin has made the tournament. Yesterday makes it now 11 straight wins for Amherst with a 69-68 Bowdoin win in January of 2010 the last time the Polar Bears won.

Even crazier, directly before that win, Amherst won another 11 straight games against Bowdoin. So in their past 23 games, Bowdoin has beaten Amherst only one time. Bowdoin has only beaten Amherst one time since Bill Clinton was President. That's insane.

I can't remember the details about Wesleyan's futility against Middlebury, but I think that this rivals it.

If you had told me that Cherry would have the bill with six seconds left, driving to the basket, down one point, and that the ball was not in the hands of Riopel or McCarthy ... I would have congratulated Bowdoin on a good win.   It was a terrific basketball game, one that Bowdoin really coulda shoulda won.   They built two big leads with the Jeffs having to crawl back each time.   Love that scorer from Bowdoin - his 25 points were effortless.

Any lines on the upcoming weekend's games?

[pinseeking1]

I'm glad this topic was brought up again. My favorite idea is creating two divisions (similar to how NESCAC baseball does it), and you play a home and away with everyone in your division and alternate with the conference opponents out of division. For instance, the two divisions I think would look like this:

North:
Bates
Bowdoin
Colby
Middlebury
Hamilton

South:
Amherst
Conn College
Trinity 
Tufts
Wesleyan
Williams

The obvious problem is that with 11 teams, the south obviously has one more game. There are few different ways to fix that problem, my favorite being adding a 12th NESCAC team from the Boston area who becomes an easier travel partner for Tufts. Bump Hamilton down to the south, and then add Tufts and the new Boston member to the north. 6 in each... I think the positives are plentiful - (1) It gets us to a 15 game conference slate, with 9 OOCs (which I think is a good number); (2) It makes sense travel wise. Obviously NESCAC sports run on a tight budget. With divisions, most of the added games will be locationally convenient and will avoid expensive overnight trips. (3) It keeps in tact the Little 3 and BBC while eliminating the goofy rivalry games that aren't conference games.

Obviously many other factors to consider, particularly when adding a whole new school to the conference. With that said, at least at face value, I think this is a fun idea that could help the league. In terms of playoffs, you keep it how it is - 8 teams, ranked 1-8 without disruption from the divisions.

What do people think? About to dial in to Midd-Wes, enjoy the day!

Those divisions are pretty uneven from a travel standpoint. May be better to go with East and West...

[Conts Fan]

That north division would have some hellacious travel. You'd have to go East/West like baseball does it.

[Cards Fan]

I really did think that Bowdoin was going to pull off the upset Saturday, and they came about as close as possible to doing it. Amherst is Bowdoin basketball's kryptonite. The Mammoths have now bounced Bowdoin from the NESCAC tournament the last three times Bowdoin has made the tournament. Yesterday makes it now 11 straight wins for Amherst with a 69-68 Bowdoin win in January of 2010 the last time the Polar Bears won.

Even crazier, directly before that win, Amherst won another 11 straight games against Bowdoin. So in their past 23 games, Bowdoin has beaten Amherst only one time. Bowdoin has only beaten Amherst one time since Bill Clinton was President. That's insane.

I can't remember the details about Wesleyan's futility against Middlebury, but I think that this rivals it.

Not quite sure exactly how long of a drought Wesleyan had against Middlebury, but I do know it stretched as long as Joe Reilly has been here (until this year).

[amh63]

Some time on my hands, so I looked at the roster of the Polar Bear team.  Most interesting to see a very big and young roster.  Seems to me that there is another "Swords" in the making....a 6'11" FY on the roster.  There is also a big FY slotted at Guard.  Big in that he is listed at 6'6" and around 230 plus pounds!  That is bigger than the Wes FY pg. 

[lumbercat]

That north division would have some hellacious travel. You'd have to go East/West like baseball does it.

Exactly

[Conts Fan]

That north division would have some hellacious travel. You'd have to go East/West like baseball does it.

Exactly

Also, though the athletic fortunes of schools go up and down over time, I wouldn't necessarily envy a Hamilton schedule in a west division potentially with Williams, Amherst, Midd, Wesleyan, and Trinity. That would be somewhat unbalanced from the east, to say the least.

[D3HforLyfe]

Okay, so my geographical understanding of the NESCAC isn't perfect. East/West makes more sense. Regardless, obviously the divisions could be fixed to make it work best travel wise... What do people think about the other aspects of that plan? 15 game conference schedule, adding a 12th team, etc ...

[amh63]

D3HforLyfe...interesting concepts, but not in my lifetime.  I do plan to stay around awhile.  It took the conference to go to a nine game football schedule more than two decades, I believe.  Not too easy to get another member into the conference...one major hurdle.

[quicksilver]

Okay, so my geographical understanding of the NESCAC isn't perfect. East/West makes more sense. Regardless, obviously the divisions could be fixed to make it work best travel wise... What do people think about the other aspects of that plan? 15 game conference schedule, adding a 12th team, etc ...

The NESCAC is not going to add another team any time soon. The membership has been fixed at 11 teams for some time -- over time, all members have shed prior relationships with other conferences and are exclusively NESCAC members for all sports. There are no affiliated teams for individual sports as there are in some conferences. An 11-team conference is already very much on the large size.

Baseball is east-west but Conn College does not have a baseball team so it is a 10-team arrangement:

east:
Bates
Bowdoin
Colby
Trinity
Tufts

west:
Amherst
Hamilton
Middlebury
Wesleyan
Williams

[nescac1]

It's looking increasingly likely that, barring a massive number of upsets in conference tourneys, NESCAC will be at least a four and more likely than not a five bid league this year  If you believe the prognosticators (who seem to know what they are doing) on this site, Williams, Wesleyan, Hamilton and Middlebury are all in.  Midd is the most vulnerable of those four, but still towards the very top of the Pool C bids.  Amherst of course is in if they win two games at home.  If they beat Wesleyan but lose in the final, the Jeffs are borderline but likely in, and if they lose to Wesleyan on Saturday, borderline but likely out, unless there are very few upsets. 

It will be interesting to see how many NESCAC teams earn the right to host a pod.  (I can't recall if Amherst can host this year, the women might have priority, just depends whose turn it is).  I think Hamilton is very likely to host a pod of teams from the NY/NJ/PA area.   I'd say Wesleyan and Williams have probably both earned hosting rights as well.  Midd probably has to go on the road.  Amherst probably needs to win NESCAC to host a pod, if the men have priority over women this year.   I think that if Williams, Wesleyan, or Hamilton win the league, they will earn hosting rights all the way to the Final Four.  If Amherst wins the league, it seems less likely that any NESCAC team would have an opportunity to host a regional. 

****

Interesting fact on Williams: the Ephs haven't won a NESCAC title since 2010.  Since that time, Williams has played in one national title game, two other Final Fours, and one other Elite 8.  In 2016, Amherst also made a Final Four despite failing to win the NESCAC title.  Shows just how difficult it is to win the league title.   If Williams and Amherst end up meeting for the title, that would be the sixth NESCAC title match-up between those two rivals; currently, Williams leads that series 3-2, with Amherst winning the last two in 2013 and 2014.  Hamilton is playing for its first league title, Wesleyan, I believe, its second.  Amherst is looking to boost its already considerable lead in number of NESCAC titles won. 

[amh63]

A little of topic post here, but what the heck.  Found and seeking some info from the Vermont posters on this board.  Sitting here having lunch with my wife's "baby sister" in Winter Park Fl.  Picked up a beer glass and the label reads Otter Creek Brewing, Middlebury, Vermont.  Asked my sister-in -law when did she pick Up the glass. Seems she was in the Green Mountain state to visit the younger brother...brother-in-law....who was attending the Un of Vermont.
Question...is the brewing company still around?  The younger brother switched to UConn after a year, resides in Newtown CT after growing up in Easton Ct....just next door to Weston Ct., the hometown of Folger, the fine Middlebury player.
Yes, too much idle time in a warm climate making mental connections.  Still thinking of Nescac MBB.  Will be going to see a new Super Hero movie, the Black Panther.....yes, made a connection to Middlebury . 
I'm routing for an Amherst sweep of the games this weekend...best chance to reach the post season.
And, to give a boast to Middlebury's Pool C chances. 

[Vandy74]

That north division would have some hellacious travel. You'd have to go East/West like baseball does it.

Also, though the athletic fortunes of schools go up and down over time, I wouldn't necessarily envy a Hamilton schedule in a west division potentially with Williams, Amherst, Midd, Wesleyan, and Trinity. That would be somewhat unbalanced from the east, to say the least.
[/quote]

The competitive imbalance between the divisions discourages such a format, but otherwise it would work.   Neither Babson nor Brandeis play varsity football which would create problems only recently resolved there.  Like Tufts, both schools have significantly less travel time to Maine than all other conference members.  Most importantly, both institutions have come up in this conversation previously as meeting the NESCAC's high academic standards.

Using a breakdown which includes Middlebury, Hamilton, Trinity and The Little Three in the west, and the CBB schools, Tufts, ConnColl and Babson/Brandeis in the east, below is the comparison of each school's in-division and out-of-division travel times.  The total figures are rounded off to the nearest half-hour and are one-way, not round trip.

                 Travel time within division     Travel time outside division

West

Middlebury:        16 hours                                24 hours
Hamilton:           17 hours                                29 hours
Trinity                10 hours                                16 hours
Amherst             10 hours                                17 hours
Williams             11 hours                                22 hours
Wesleyan           11 1/2 hours                          16 hours

East

ConnColl            15 1/2 hours                          14 1/2 hours
Tufts                  9 hours                                 16 hours
Bates                 10 hours                               2 1/2 hours
Bowdoin             9 1/2                                    25 hours
Colby                 12 hours                               30 hours

Babson              12 hours                                15 hours
Brandeis            12 1/2 hours                          15 hours

I agree with amh63 that the addition of a new conference member, solely for improving in-conference basketball scheduling, is highly improbable, but for the purpose of lessening travel time disparities this proposed alignment would work.

[D3HforLyfe]

Wow, Vandy74 thanks for putting that together. Pretty cool to see the differences in travel time for schools...and, Amh63, sadly you are probably correct - It is highly unlikely that the NESCAC, a conference that seems very hesitant to change or adapt too much, takes on another school any time soon. I will say that the reasons for not taking one on aren't very convincing though, at least to me. The most common push back I've read concerns football, and, if that is actually the reason not to let in another school, that is silly. There are 27 different conference championship sports (14 women, 13 men) - if addition of another incredible academic institution would increase the competition for the majority of the others, football shouldn't matter that much. And the argument on the basis that "it's just the way it is" or "its always been that way" is usually not a good reason in any realm of life. I think the addition of Babson, Brandeis, or MIT (I know not a liberal arts school, but I think it would be so cool if MIT was in the 'CAC) would be great on a number of different levels... Anyways, this is probably an out of season topic. We are coming up on one of my favorite weekends of the year and obviously have plenty to talk about already. Maybe we circle back to this in a couple months.

NESCAC1, I believe you are spot on with you tournament assessment as of now. It would be great for the conference (and very impressive) to be a 5-bid league back-to-back years. I'm sure the guys over at D3H.com would know better, but I can't imagine that feat happens too often. 

I like Wesleyan over Amherst and Williams over Hamilton on Saturday. In the championship I like Wesleyan over Williams, 75-68...It is wide open though. In my time following the NESCAC, I can't remember four teams being so equally matched in the conference final four (particularly since the team that I would say is a little bit behind the other three has home court advantage). It's going to be an electric environment and a lot of fun!