MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand. 

[Bucket]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand.

Union was part of the group—Bates, Colby, Middlebury Tufts, Trinity, Hamilton—that joined the NESCAC in 1971, before leaving in '77. I'm assuming hockey was the reason?

[JEFFFAN]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand.

Nescac1 - can you clarify your comment on how the academic philosophy of MIT would not be compatible with the same for the NESCAC?

[nescac1]

MIT is a major national research university, first of all.  No NESCAC school is even close to that.  It's also primarily focused on science and engineering, and also a major part of the institution is professional education (including a prominent business school).  By no stretch of the imagination is MIT primarily a liberal arts college and its academic model bears little in common with NESCAC schools.  Really the only thing it has in common is very tough standards for admission (harder than any NESCAC school, even), but that alone does not make it our peer in terms of educational philosophy or focus.  Tufts and Wesleyan are both universities, sure, but both are primarily focused on liberal arts undergraduate educations with relatively small grad schools and not much in the way of professional schools.  Tufts is already a slight outlier in NESCAC, but if you bring a school like MIT in, the whole idea of a consortium of small liberal arts colleges is eviscerated. 

Would it enhance the reputation of NESCAC to add MIT as a member?  Sure.  And it's also a regional athletic powerhouse.  But I don't think that NESCAC is or should be solely focused on just how great of a school MIT is (just like I wouldn't want Harvard or UPenn in NESCAC).  NESCAC is a conglomeration of schools with a similar educational mission, and one that isn't really in the same ballgame as MIT's. 

[polbear73]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand.

Union was part of the group—Bates, Colby, Middlebury Tufts, Trinity, Hamilton—that joined the NESCAC in 1971, before leaving in '77. I'm assuming hockey was the reason?

Yes it was.  The Union hockey coach in the early 70's was Ned Harkness who had very different ideas about recruiting than the NESCAC founding fathers. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The NCAA men's basketball regional advisory committees released their third set of rankings, and as expected, the Atlantic Region was among those getting shuffled. Here's the full list: http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2018/02/men-regional-rankings-third

[Vandy74]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand.

nescac1

You lose me with the Vassar's ideal location ideal location logic.    It takes almost six hours to drive from Poughkeepsie, NY to Waterville, Maine, and the additional school necessary for the two division format to work must join the east.  That's why I didn't consider Skidmore.   As for Brandeis and Babson, when this topic has come up in the past, they have been considered viable candidates along with Skidmore.    I didn't consider MIT because it plays Nescac sanctioned sports in divisions other than III, which I believe is a conference no-no.  I could be mistaken.  Once Union decided to go DI in ice hockey, I don't believe they had the option to stay.  From an academic standpoint, as you point out, MIT's academic philosophy is not that of a liberal arts institution.  They also play varsity football which creates another problem. 

My post was the idle speculation of a Panther fan who has the week off, and meant to be nothing more than that.

   

[nescac1]

There are always going to be some long drives, but Vassar is really close to Wesleyan, Trinity, Williams, and Amherst, and reasonably close to Tufts, Conn College, and Midd.  Any school outside of Boston is going to be far from Maine, just kind of the way it is.  And Vassar is a MUCH closer fit than Babson (a business school) or Brandeis (a mid-sized university) to the NESCAC core academic model, which matters to the powers that be, I would imagine. 

I think that a Vassar/Williams/Midd/Amherst/Wesleyan/Hamilton division and then a Trinity/Conn College/Tufts/Bates/Colby/Bowdoin division could really work.  Pretty reasonable travel times all around with that, and keeps the traditional rivals together.  (If not Vassar, maybe another liberal arts college form NY, like Skidmore).  Far from ideal from a competitive balance standpoint as NESCAC currently stands, but these things CAN change over time ... once upon a time Conn (for a brief period) and Colby were major basketball powers, while Midd was anything but, after all! 

[Vandy74]

There are always going to be some long drives, but Vassar is really close to Wesleyan, Trinity, Williams, and Amherst, and reasonably close to Tufts, Conn College, and Midd.  Any school outside of Boston is going to be far from Maine, just kind of the way it is.  And Vassar is a MUCH closer fit than Babson (a business school) or Brandeis (a mid-sized university) to the NESCAC core academic model, which matters to the powers that be, I would imagine. 

I think that a Vassar/Williams/Midd/Amherst/Wesleyan/Hamilton division and then a Trinity/Conn College/Tufts/Bates/Colby/Bowdoin division could really work.  Pretty reasonable travel times all around with that, and keeps the traditional rivals together.  (If not Vassar, maybe another liberal arts college form NY, like Skidmore).  Far from ideal from a competitive balance standpoint as NESCAC currently stands, but these things CAN change over time ... once upon a time Conn (for a brief period) and Colby were major basketball powers, while Midd was anything but, after all!

From a competitive balance standpoint, I'd opt for Skidmore over Vassar.  Middlebury needs an under two hour trip, not another three and a half hour one, although that is the travel time to Hartford.   You're correct that Trinity can fit nicely in either division.  I overlooked that.  With Skidmore, I like your proposal better.   

[nescac1]

Vandy, I think Skidmore would be a great addition.  Of course, I have no idea if NESCAC would ever want to expand or if Skidmore would have any interest.  But it seems to make sense for everyone involved ...

New England regional rankings are out.  I'm not quite sure why Williams would drop behind Eastern Conn after the Ephs beat Trinity while Eastern Conn beat a couple of bottom-tier LEC teams.  Not that it really matters, Williams controls its own destiny -- if the Ephs win out they will surely leap ahead of the teams in front of them, and if they lose they would have dropped behind Eastern Conn anyway. 

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2018/02/men-regional-rankings-third

If Williams, Wesleyan, or Hamilton wins NESCAC, they will be first in the region, I have no doubt.  But what about if Amherst wins out?  I imagine they could get to as high as third if (1) they win out, (2) Eastern Conn loses in its league tourney, (3) and Hamilton beats Williams, but no higher.  I don't see how Amherst could possibly eclipse Wesleyan or Hamilton under any circumstances.  I think that any of three NESCAC teams, or Eastern Conn, could all feasibly end up as the top Northeast team depending on how things shake down this weekend.  Fun!

I'm a bit surprised that Tufts, with 8 losses, is hanging on to a regional ranking above unranked Nichols ... the Jumbos did, however, play a brutally tough schedule. 

[lumbercat]

The collective thinking among all the current posts here share a perception of the NESCAC as a conference from an athletic perspective. All of the potential schools mentioned may have merit but I see NESCAC Presidents vigorously protecting the exclusivity of their elite group of schools and think it highly unlikely that they consider expanding or changing the configuration of the conference to enhance athletics.

I'd be surprised if they open these elite doors to anyone unless there is a departure of a current member like a Tufts moves to the UAA as rumored in the past.

[Vandy74]

The collective thinking among all the current posts here share a perception of the NESCAC as a conference from an athletic perspective. All of the potential schools mentioned may have merit but I see NESCAC Presidents vigorously protecting the exclusivity of their elite group of schools and think it highly unlikely that they consider expanding or changing the configuration of the conference to enhance athletics.

I'd be surprised if they open these elite doors to anyone unless there is a departure of a current member like a Tufts moves to the UAA as rumored in the past.

I doubt any of us would argue that point with you lumbercat.  I've stated more than once on these boards that the the NESCAC was created to enhance the quality of academics, not athletics.   It should be noted, however, that it was speculation on financial concerns that revived this thread.  No one has said a word about improving the quality of play.  This is idle speculation on a slow news day.  The season will be over for at least half of the conference after this weekend.  If the good folks in Clinton aren't complaining about travel costs, I doubt anyone else is either.  I also agree with you that the NESCAC college presidents would see few, if any, schools in the area as being an acceptable fit.  Should Tufts decide to leave, I doubt there would be any urgency to find a replacement.     

[P'bearfan]

If Nescac wants a 12th team, to me, Vassar is the school it should target.  MIT and Babson have little in common with Nescac in terms of academic philosophy.  Brandeis seems like a much better fit for UAA and I doubt would want to leave.  Vassar adds another liberal arts school with an elite reputation.  The location is perfect — adds to Nescac's New York State and NYC region appeal, but also a very easy trip from all but the Maine schools and Midd.  Creates a potential travel partner for Hamilton. Doesn't have football and I doubt Nescac wants an 11th football school.  And I'm guessing Vassar - which struggles at times to attract male students - might be game to amp up its athletic reputation while also fitting in perfectly with the Nescac academic brand.

Union was part of the group—Bates, Colby, Middlebury Tufts, Trinity, Hamilton—that joined the NESCAC in 1971, before leaving in '77. I'm assuming hockey was the reason?

Yes it was.  The Union hockey coach in the early 70's was Ned Harkness who had very different ideas about recruiting than the NESCAC founding fathers.

From the it's a small world department: I had dinner with a friend last weekend who played for Ned Harkness at Cornell.

[amh63]

P'bearfan...nice post, as I really enjoy small world type comments.  I also have a BB type story.
Several years ago, went to an Amherst affair in downtown D.C in a private facility.  Going through security, I bumped into an older alum who wore a baseball hat that indicated he was at the dedication of a recent aircraft carrier named for the first Bush president.  The alum, a former FBI and CIA director, chatted on the way up to the musical affair.  Subject, men's basketball.  In particular, a grandson's participation at nearby D3 Gettysburg College, I recall.  Facility was a law firm, the older alum is referred to with respect by lawyers as "Judge"....I'm NOT a lawyer by profession . I therefore addressed him as "sir", being my elder. I was taught by my father to stand up for an older alum arriving at an mtg/ affair.
Hope to arrive home earlier enough to catch some of the Sat games this weekend.

[Bucket]

The collective thinking among all the current posts here share a perception of the NESCAC as a conference from an athletic perspective. All of the potential schools mentioned may have merit but I see NESCAC Presidents vigorously protecting the exclusivity of their elite group of schools and think it highly unlikely that they consider expanding or changing the configuration of the conference to enhance athletics.

I'd be surprised if they open these elite doors to anyone unless there is a departure of a current member like a Tufts moves to the UAA as rumored in the past.

I agree with you, lumbercat. But does anyone think that Skidmore or Vassar are not at least the equals of, say, Conn College, from an academic standpoint?