MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Jefffan, Old Guy is not a Williams fan, and no Williams fan has ever made any such claim.

[JEFFFAN]

Jefffan, Old Guy is not a Williams fan, and no Williams fan has ever made any such claim.

Okay, my bad!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Not hoops related but interesting Nescac sports news.  A bit surprising to me given what sounds like a pretty minor violation:

https://swimswam.com/amherst-college-withdraws-team-from-mens-ncaa-championships/

This feels more like a punitive thing for the team, but I know schools are getting a lot more cautious after the Thomas More WBB decision - they got dinged far more for not checking with the NCAA than they did for the actual violations.

Not sure why that story didn't say what it was... but there was a report I read the other day that the alcohol offense was the team drinking on the team bus on the way back from NESCAC championships. That isn't a minor violation. That's a pretty big no-no even in the eyes of the NCAA. Simply isn't allowed.

[nescac1]

I guess I just didn't see drinking a few beers after a competition as a big deal considering basically everyone in college does it, but if the NCAA sees it differently, so be it ...

D3HforLyfe, excellent thoughts on Maker.  I agree 100 percent.  He would be a brilliant lead assistant choice for any high-level D1 head coach looking to install a new movement-centric offensive system. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I guess I just didn't see drinking a few beers after a competition as a big deal considering basically everyone in college does it, but if the NCAA sees it differently, so be it ...

While on a team bus? Big no-no. On your own on your own time. So be it (as long as it is legal), but absolutely not on a team bus. I need to find where it happened, but one team in another sport got punished pretty harshly by the NCAA for doing the same returning from an NCAA championship weekend or something.

Also before anyone says it is an NCAA rule or something, most schools I know have the same rule/code of conduct with their teams on their buses. They represent the college. If they were to climb off a bus at a stop or something smelling of alcohol, how do you think that represents the college? Those rules are at most schools I know.

Do it on your time, not the time of the school (which includes to and from competition on a bus the school is paying for).

[Gregory Sager]

I guess I just didn't see drinking a few beers after a competition as a big deal considering basically everyone in college does it, but if the NCAA sees it differently, so be it ...

While on a team bus? Big no-no. On your own on your own time. So be it (as long as it is legal), but absolutely not on a team bus. I need to find where it happened, but one team in another sport got punished pretty harshly by the NCAA for doing the same returning from an NCAA championship weekend or something.

Also before anyone says it is an NCAA rule or something, most schools I know have the same rule/code of conduct with their teams on their buses. They represent the college. If they were to climb off a bus at a stop or something smelling of alcohol, how do you think that represents the college? Those rules are at most schools I know.

Do it on your time, not the time of the school (which includes to and from competition on a bus the school is paying for).

This. Plus, only five of the 24 members of the Amherst men's swimming & diving team are seniors. I'll bet that there were a number of partaking student-athletes on that bus who weren't of legal drinking age.

[Colby Hoops]

Hate to break it to you guys, but if that was strictly enforced there would be a lot of teams ineligible for the NCAA tourney in a lot of sports. Obviously understand where the NCAA and schools are coming from, but I can guarantee that the Amherst Swimming team is far from the only team in the NCAA where that is happening.

[Pat Coleman]

Hate to break it to you guys, but if that was strictly enforced there would be a lot of teams ineligible for the NCAA tourney in a lot of sports. Obviously understand where the NCAA and schools are coming from, but I can guarantee that the Amherst Swimming team is far from the only team in the NCAA where that is happening.

I know a D-III basketball coach who got fired over that sort of thing.

Amherst self-withdrew from the championships. The NCAA didn't take action. That seems about right.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Hate to break it to you guys, but if that was strictly enforced there would be a lot of teams ineligible for the NCAA tourney in a lot of sports. Obviously understand where the NCAA and schools are coming from, but I can guarantee that the Amherst Swimming team is far from the only team in the NCAA where that is happening.

BTW - Amherst swimming is far from the only team that has done something, too. You just happen to hear about this occurance.

Yes... Amherst decided to make the decision, but it isn't like the NCAA couldn't step in if they chose either. However, this was mainly a school decision based on their own rules. Other schools have done the same. Pat points out coaches who have lost jobs (the one I am thinking about, not sure if it is the same as Pat's, is doozy of a story). If other departments are allowing things, or letting them slide, that is on them. Amherst felt it wasn't something they were going to allow to happen no matter the circumstances.

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah. It's that doozy.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yeah. It's that doozy.

Ha. Wow... yeah... anyway... it has happened

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Is the rule still "presence of alcohol" or have they lightened up a bit?  I know for a while it was technically illegal to be at a party where alcohol was being consumed, even if you weren't drinking.  I have to imagine that's one of the least enforced rules the NCAA has.

[Old Guy]

The punishment that Amherst applied to their swim team is appropriate. I'd be interested to know if there were further penalties, additional school sanctions. I looked in the Amherst  student newspaper on line and didn't find anything about the matter. I'd also be interested to know if the coach (or a coach) was on the bus: if so, that coach was either severely disrespected or was irresponsible in their oversight. It's not that having a few beers after a contest is such a bad thing — as soon as they got back to campus they'd likely be heading to a party of some kind, but they broke an important team rule, certainly a school-wide rule. Consider the implications if this violation was winked at. Penalty seems about right to me. Coach Nichols did the right thing, if the very brief report we have to go on is accurate.

[frank uible]

Were innocent individuals punished by the punishment of the team?

[Old Guy]

Been holding off commenting on this post for a few days but finally - well, it just hit me that the comment from OldGuy "...I don't really understand why Williams ever loses, given the talent that they have which, to us, seems superior to any other NESCAC club, and not by a narrow margin", should stick in the craw of a bunch of NESCAC fans from other schools.   This was a nice Williams team that tied for the regular season title, won the NESCAC title, and lost in the second round.   The second round!  There are a number of teams that also tied for the regular season title and there are two NESCAC teams still playing this upcoming weekend.   On what basis would any objective observer suggest that the talent level is far superior and not by a narrow margin, or wonder why Williams ever loses?  About a team that lost six times and is trying to figure out where to head to Florida for spring break?   Time to take a chill pill, Eph fans.   There have been a half-dozen Eph teams with more talent than this one over the past 25 years, teams that actually won in the post-season.   To say nothing of the Middlebury, Wesleyan and Hamilton teams this year that have talent as good or better than Williams.   (Note I didn't mention my beloved Lord Jeffs, because I don't feel this year that their talent level was very high.)

Just sort of an uncalled for slam against the good Williams coach and against the rest of the other good NESCAC teams, clearly in a down year for the NESCAC, two of whom are still playing.

Upon further reflection: in the quotation above — I don't really understand why Williams ever loses, given the talent that they have which, to us, seems superior to any other NESCAC club, and not by a narrow margin — the first part ("why Williams ever loses") is hyperbole — and the last part ("and not by a narrow margin") I would eliminate upon reconsideration, out of respect for those very good teams JEFFAN mentions - it's excessive.

The simple observation at the core was I think that Williams had the best talent (size, shotmaking, ball handling) in the league. I was probably inviting NESCAC1 (or another Williams partisan) to explain their inconsistency. I even asked about "leadership" and "toughness," speculation based on nothing but that inconsistency. But no Williams poster took the bait. Credit them.

It may be that I overvalued their talent (though extremely rare, I'm sometimes wrong). While NESCAC1 is comprehensive in his analysis, he is always circumspect, forgiving of the team's and players' off nights. I doubt that any Williams player, parent, or coach who may lurk on this board has a problem with NESCAC1. At the same time, he does not inflate the abilities of players with unreasonable estimates.

Middlebury's NCAA wins are very exciting, after the downer of the last two weekends of the season. The team played very well last weekend and heads into this weekend with momentum. MIT is formidable. This year was Middlebury's basketball centennial. If anyone is interested, here's a column from the local paper celebrating 100 years of Midd hoop: http://www.addisonindependent.com/201803karl-lindholm-century-hoop-middlebury-college