MBB: NESCAC

[Colby Hoops]

I don't disagree with the takes about how it looks from a visual standpoint for Colby and the little 3 but I think we are giving more benefit to looking good against terrible competition and not enough credit to Colby for playing tough teams. Outside of Thomas they have really challenged themselves. It's easy to look good beating up on the basement of D3. If Colby played 5 games against the bottom of the division I think we would be talking about them differently. We all can agree they have the best player in the junior class, the best player in the sophomore class, and Lawson who looks like the 3rd ROY in a row. Just think we have to stop comparing them to the 19-20 team. They can still be an elite team and not shoot the way 19-20 team did.

Agree with your last sentence -- it's going to look different than 19-20 if Colby is going to be a very good team.

Don't really agree on Colby's schedule. WPI is good (although they crushed Colby and were crushed by Wesleyan), Babson is decent. The other three teams Colby beat are not very good. New England College is 3-4 including a loss to St Joe's (ME), Johnson and Wales is 1-2 with a 40 point loss to Eastern Connecticut State (who lost to Trinity) and Thomas led with 11 minutes to go against Colby. None of those games were really blowout wins for Colby.

[nescac1]

I agree that with Rogers, Tufts is too talented not to be a top-five team (at least) in NESCAC.   Without him, though, suddenly they are a lot less potent because there is, apparently, no inside force to keep teams off all of Tufts outside shooting specialists.  So the question is, how soon does he come back, and is he 100 percent when he does so. 

Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan have not played the best competition to date, for sure.  But Wes did kill WPI who handled Colby.  Amherst has been dominating teams by such ridiculous margins NOT to be for real.  And Williams handled Oneonta, which looks like a pretty talented team, and just looks the part, the offense is so much more potent and balanced than last year and the talent, while still mostly inexperienced, is abundant.  I am confident that at least two of those three, maybe all three, will be hanging around the top 30 all year, but yes, they definitely need to prove it verses better teams.  The Williams-Wesleyan game in a week will be the first real measuring stick, and I expect that most of those Little 3 games are gonna be wars. 

Speaking of great NESCAC sophomores, check out some of these Cole highlights from last night.  Now, with all the caveats that this is against a really bad team, these are still really fun plays to watch.  Cole showed flashes of this as a frosh but the problem was, he would have one play where he tried to do too much for every spectacular individual play.  While he's still only one year into his career, it does seem like his game is really growing and he is learning when to be steady and focus on getting other guys involved vs. when to take over with some individual razzle dazzle, not an easy balance to find for a scoring point guard.  If Williams didn't prioritize balanced scoring, as it should, he would easily put up 22 ppg, but that would not be good for the team. 

The plays to watch for Cole highlights are all between 2:45 to 5:00.  He shows his full array there -- passing, driving, deep shooting, mid-range, finishing inside.  The around-the-back dribble in the lane is especially slick.  Again, this won't be so easy against better teams, but the skill set he has is impressive ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N0mbW3iLC4

There's also one gorgeous Roughley post most in there, he has such nice footwork and feel around the basket while also showing good three-point shooting ability despite an unorthodox shooting style, his numbers through four games are pretty crazy: 12-3.5-1 in only 18 mpg, on 63/50/75 splits.  And at 6'8 he defends perimeter players capably, including some good ones on Oneonta.  The ROY race looks like a really good one (I'm assuming only actual freshmen are eligible although that isn't clear) between Roughley, Lawson and Stevens leading the pack but loads of other guys who could make a move too with more opportunities (Porter, Dorion, Schainfeld, Canin Reynolds, Nicky Johnson all seem like players and probably some others too ....).  Very talented group of frosh in NESCAC this year. 

Oh, and yeah, I do not think King is the best player in the sophomore class unless he can start scoring the ball, he was as a first year but right now, there are a bunch of other guys who are in that conversation -- Cole, Nate Karren, Stephon Baxter (off to a crazy start for Bates), plus new sophomores who are off to great starts like Michael Simonds, Mohammad Alausa and Jay Dieterle (too soon to say for them but great stats to start the year).  Seems like Omar Sarr was banged up to start the year but I would not sleep on him either. 

Noah Tyson, yeah, I assume the best in the junior class which is a weirdly weak one for NESCAC.  Who would the other contenders even be, I'm not sure?  I guess Sobel?  The senior class (which has lots of fifth year guys so not a fair comparison) is much better ... Robinson, Day, Rogers, Jorden, Peek, Osarenren (off to a great start this year, having the break-out year many expected as a sophomore), Jordan James ...

[Colby Hoops]

Oh, and yeah, I do not think King is the best player in the sophomore class unless he can start scoring the ball, he was as a first year but right now, there are a bunch of other guys who are in that conversation -- Cole, Nate Karren, Stephon Baxter (off to a crazy start for Bates), plus new sophomores who are off to great starts like Michael Simonds, Mohammad Alausa and Jay Dieterle (too soon to say for them but great stats to start the year).  Seems like Omar Sarr was banged up to start the year but I would not sleep on him either. 

Also King is listed as a junior now, he did not take a gap year last year. Colby needs him to attack the hoop more, but it's not totally in his nature. And being more aggressive as a scorer will only open up more passing lanes.

Still, his passing is on another level this year. He is the best passer I've ever seen in the Nescac. He makes 2-3 passes every game that are just ridiculous. He's averaging 8 assists per game, first in the league by a mile, and is third in the league in assist to turnover ratio. He has more assists than Conn College does as a team (granted in two more games). The assists will only rise if Colby shoots a bit better as well. He's a truly unique player.

[nescac1]

King is definitely a great passer, I haven't seen quite enough of him to have an opinion as to whether he's the best .... although I'm having a hard time thinking of other recent candidates. 

Best passer ever in NESCAC, that's a conversation I'm not sure we've ever has!  (I think Andrew Olson has to be the answer, he was NESCAC's version of Steve Nash, with Mike Crotty as runner-up, but may predate your fandom, Colby Hoops ...).

[nescac1]

FWIW, which is little (but not nothing) so early in the season, in the Massey rankings Amherst is second in Division 3 (even with a weak schedule, just utterly destroying teams really helps there), Wesleyan is 9, and Williams is 23. Colby is the next best NESCAC team at 68.   The top teams in New England by those rankings are Amherst, Wesleyan, Mass-Dartmouth, Williams, St. Joe's, WPI, Nichols, Brandeis, Keene State and Colby.  It's crazy how well that seems to correspond with how good those teams are on paper, even five games into the season; that really seems like the top group in New England right now. 

Whoever wins the Williams-Wesleyan game in early December will certainly get a big boost. 

https://masseyratings.com/cb/ncaa-d3/ratings

The NESCAC ratings seem to match the eye / talent-level test pretty well too ... with Tufts, again, having a chance to move up once Rogers (presumably) returns:

https://masseyratings.com/cb2022/12903

[Colby Hoops]

King is definitely a great passer, I haven't seen quite enough of him to have an opinion as to whether he's the best .... although I'm having a hard time thinking of other recent candidates. 

Best passer ever in NESCAC, that's a conversation I'm not sure we've ever has!  (I think Andrew Olson has to be the answer, he was NESCAC's version of Steve Nash, with Mike Crotty as runner-up, but may predate your fandom, Colby Hoops ...).

I didn't really see Crotty play at Williams, although I've played men's leagues and pickup with him and he's undoubtedly a great passer.

Olson was the other guy I thought about. He was a senior when I was a freshman. Those teams were just so good and so talented, that some if it felt a little easier -- just picking between the best of many great options with his passes. Not to diminish him, he was one of the best D3 players ever. Although, my hottest take, is that if you put Zak Ray from Bates on those Amherst teams in place of Olson I think you end up with pretty similar outcomes for both.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

King is definitely a great passer, I haven't seen quite enough of him to have an opinion as to whether he's the best .... although I'm having a hard time thinking of other recent candidates. 

Best passer ever in NESCAC, that's a conversation I'm not sure we've ever has!  (I think Andrew Olson has to be the answer, he was NESCAC's version of Steve Nash, with Mike Crotty as runner-up, but may predate your fandom, Colby Hoops ...).

I didn't really see Crotty play at Williams, although I've played men's leagues and pickup with him and he's undoubtedly a great passer.

Olson was the other guy I thought about. He was a senior when I was a freshman. Those teams were just so good and so talented, that some if it felt a little easier -- just picking between the best of many great options with his passes. Not to diminish him, he was one of the best D3 players ever. Although, my hottest take, is that if you put Zak Ray from Bates on those Amherst teams in place of Olson I think you end up with pretty similar outcomes for both.

Just for context, I've talked to a lot of guys about Andrew Olson and I've never heard anyone spoken of with such reverence, in terms of court vision, passing, and ability to get the ball where it needs to be.  I think the question is more how many less talented teams could Olson have gotten to the same level of success?

[nescac1]

Zak Ray was awesome and would have been great on Amherst, so fast, and would have gotten a lot more publicity if he didn't play for Bates, but something about the way Olson elevated everyone around him I think was irreplaceable.  Of course, unlike Colby Hoops I didn't have to guard those guys! 

To me, the best four-year NESCAC players I've seen were Nogelo and Olson, because they both raised the level of their teammates so much and were awesome players from their first day on campus, and then it becomes very hard to say who would be next from a big group of all-American level guys like Toomey, Whittington, Coffin, Crotty, Sharry, Ray, Schultz, Rhoten, Mayer, Workman, Hausman and so on ... (I know Toomey got just as much hype and accolades as Olson, but as great as he was, to me, Olson is another level up as a player). 

[Colby Hoops]

Zak Ray was awesome and would have been great on Amherst, so fast, and would have gotten a lot more publicity if he didn't play for Bates, but something about the way Olson elevated everyone around him I think was irreplaceable.  Of course, unlike Colby Hoops I didn't have to guard those guys!   

I just had a front row seat from the bench

[Old Guy]

Got this report from my friend at Bates: "Interesting Watching Bates play tonight. Different starting line up than last game I saw. Started 3 freshman. They all played well. Freshman from Gorham ME was much more relaxed and played well. First 3 off bench were 2 freshman and a sophomore. Very quick/athletic team and big guys were more involved. Sarr was a different player tonight. Shot well, excellent defense 16 ten. Baxter had an off first half, but still finished with 25. Overall it was a much more balance attack. This team is fun to watch. Freshman are very poised,... and talented."

The "Little Three" of Maine will be fun this year, as it always is. I grew up at Bates watching the Maine State Series (UMaine was also in it then) and fell in love with sports as a kid as a result. I'm so old I remember watching Bowdoin stalwarts Bangor Billy Cohen (that would Sen. Cohen) and burly Dick Whitmore, even more terrifying as a player than as a coach.

I then came to Middlebury to play hoop and baseball and enjoyed the VT State Series which included UVM, St. Michael's, and Norwich. No remnants of that now. Norwich won't schedule us ("league commitments"), nor will Castleton, which some years is pretty good. Having to schedule 15 non-league games from VT means we play a lot of teams named "Who's That?" (at least to our fans). Road warriors. Incidental info: Stan Van Gundy coached at Castleton for a few years early in his career — they were certainly good then.

Colby posters: I played at Middlebury in the 1960s when we weren't very good (that's euphemistic for being "bad"). We would have been better if a fellow named Ken Stone, from Portland, hadn't decided after a year at Middlebury to transfer to Colby where he scored well over 1000 points, is in their HOF (and the New England Hoop HOF).

Tolja I'm old — that's what I'm here for: historical memory (as long as I have a memory anyway)!

Carry on! Happy Thanksgiving all!

[SpringSt7]

Does anyone know the last time before Tufts this year that a NESCAC team started their season 0-4? Conn went 4-20 in 2019-2020 but they won their opener, they were my only guess. Thinking it's been a while.

[amh63]

Old Guy is a bit modest.  There is a building at Bates named after his father.  His early posts mention returning to Bates to visit his mother.  He also had nicknames for his son and daughter that had "Old" associated with it.  He is wise enough to avoid adding the "Old" title to his wife...I recall.

[AmherstStudent05]

I can't resist a Toomey/Olson debate!

First things first, on this whole Olson/Ray issue — an issue that was raised many years ago — I have to agree with Ryan. No offense to Mr Ray, but Andrew played at a different level. He definitely helped Amherst more than Amherst helped him.

Andrew was (just barely) a contemporary of mine and I thought for sure he would go down as the best player in Amherst history. But I do believe that Toomey goes down as the best Amherst player I have ever seen. Strong arguments can certainly be made either way.

Olson had a masterful basketball IQ from the moment he arrived at Amherst. I remember working his first home game — it must have been mop up time at the Ken Wright Memorial — and the assistant SID turned to me and said "that's a future all American". Sadly, Ray got hurt a couple of games later and the rest was history.

Aaron had to develop his basketball IQ a bit more it seemed. I remember he took a fair amount of criticism on that score, particularly during his sophomore year. While I understood where the criticism was coming from I always found it a bit unfair. We did have a perfect NESCAC season that year, after all, and it seemed that Aaron was being held not to a reasonable standard but the impossibly high one set by Andrew. Also, not only was Aaron our primary ball handler, distributor and crunch time scorer (something Andrew also was as a sophomore), Aaron was also our volume scorer (something Andrew never had to be).

But Aaron's court sense, which I never thought was bad, came a long way his final two years and I would say that by his senior year his basketball sense rivaled even Andrew's. And it is that senior season that really tips the scales towards Toomey in my opinion. I want to be careful not to shortchange Aaron's teammates on that team — particularly Killian, Green and Kalema — but I think even Toomey's biggest detractors would acknowledge that he carried that team to the NESCAC regular season title, the NESCAC championship and a final four bid. He was truly a man possessed that year and that is why I rank him as the greatest Jeff I have ever watched (but I am ever hopeful that even he will be soon eclipsed!!!).

A few years ago I raised the question of a NESCAC Mount Rushmore. Selfishly, I set the timeframe starting from 2001, which is when I first arrived at Amherst (so no Nogelo, Hancock, or Rehnquist for me). At the time, which must have been 2004, I nominated Toomey, Olson and Rhoten. I couldn't decide on a fourth spot but I mentioned that it didn't matter because I was saving it for Duncan anyway. Thank god he transferred a month later!  Not sure who would get that last spot. I really liked Hausman's game but he probably gets hurt (fairly or not) by the fact that his team had some, but not an overwhelming amount of, success. As I recall I mentioned even then, the trouble with Williams is it's hard to differentiate between a host of guys. Wang, Coffin, Crotty, Mayer, Whittington, Schultz just right off the bat.

For my current Amherst Mt Rushmore I guess I would have to go Toomey Olson, Bedford, Workman. But how do I leave off Zieja? And Baskauskas? And Schiel? And Harper? Very hard to do.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[SpringSt7]

The Williams Mt. Rushmore is impossible because of the consistency of the program over the last 30 years. It's so hard to differentiate from player to player. And then there's the fact that just about all of them went to a Final Four but only one team won a National Championship---it would seem almost impossible to leave off one of Crotty or Coffin (I would take Coffin for the record, higher ceiling).

I would go Coffin, Crotty, Wang, Mayer but if I wanted to try and spread the love a little more I would put Schultz on for Crotty. Crotty was incredible to say the least, but he also follows under the category of college player who put up great numbers because he played so many minutes for four years, not necesarrily because of the damage he did as a junior and senior, which is what Coffin did. The peaks of Wang and Schultz are higher than Crotty's peak, for example.

It is really just crazy the depth of player that has come through Williams and Amherst.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

All I know is a lot of the guys who played and coached at Amherst the last two decades don't have Olson and Toomey in the same conversation. However, because of Toomey's scoring ability, if Dave Hixon ever finds himself in a Space Jam situation, he can always push Aaron over to the 2, and it'll work out just fine.