MBB: NESCAC

[SpringSt7]

I have found that the officiating is always a problem in the NCAA tournament because I believe they try to pony up and pay for D1 referees. It sounds like a good idea in theory, but having better refs who are accustomed to a faster game speed just means they are able to see more fouls and therefore call more fouls. For example, Williams and St. Joe's was a really really tough game to watch. 49 combined fouls between two teams that average 12.4 and 17.2 per game. Williams was in the bonus 8 minutes into the second half and the game just totally ground to a halt. Not to mention the refs seem like they are less receptive of talking and giving feedback to the players and coaches because maybe they think they are above it all as D1 referees.

St. Joe's was the better team and it is ultimately for the best that they went through, but if I were both teams I would've been pretty annoyed that our top 5 scoring defenses were being bogged down by the other team consistently getting to the line for touch fouls. You want to create an environment that is doing its best to send the better teams on to the next round, and the excessive foul calls seem to narrow the gap between any two teams. Williams really had no business being in the game from an offensive standpoint but they were able to go to the foul line a lot and keep it within a 12-16 point game for a while when it really should've been 20+.

33-9 in fouls sounds like a different story but I didn't catch any of that game so I can't comment on it. I just know that it seems like the tournament games tend to be overofficiated when they should probably be underofficiated.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I have found that the officiating is always a problem in the NCAA tournament because I believe they try to pony up and pay for D1 referees. It sounds like a good idea in theory, but having better refs who are accustomed to a faster game speed just means they are able to see more fouls and therefore call more fouls. For example, Williams and St. Joe's was a really really tough game to watch. 49 combined fouls between two teams that average 12.4 and 17.2 per game. Williams was in the bonus 8 minutes into the second half and the game just totally ground to a halt. Not to mention the refs seem like they are less receptive of talking and giving feedback to the players and coaches because maybe they think they are above it all as D1 referees.

St. Joe's was the better team and it is ultimately for the best that they went through, but if I were both teams I would've been pretty annoyed that our top 5 scoring defenses were being bogged down by the other team consistently getting to the line for touch fouls. You want to create an environment that is doing its best to send the better teams on to the next round, and the excessive foul calls seem to narrow the gap between any two teams. Williams really had no business being in the game from an offensive standpoint but they were able to go to the foul line a lot and keep it within a 12-16 point game for a while when it really should've been 20+.

33-9 in fouls sounds like a different story but I didn't catch any of that game so I can't comment on it. I just know that it seems like the tournament games tend to be overofficiated when they should probably be underofficiated.

The referees are evaluated all year long and chosen based on performance by the D3 MBB and WBB heads of officiating.  It's a pretty intense and competitive process.  There are no such thing as "D1" or "D3" referees.  Refs are independent contractors and choose the games/leagues they want to take for whatever reasons they choose.

No question, though, every referee assigned to a d3 NCAA tournament games has reffed d3 extensively during the regular season.

[toad22]

I have found that the officiating is always a problem in the NCAA tournament because I believe they try to pony up and pay for D1 referees. It sounds like a good idea in theory, but having better refs who are accustomed to a faster game speed just means they are able to see more fouls and therefore call more fouls. For example, Williams and St. Joe's was a really really tough game to watch. 49 combined fouls between two teams that average 12.4 and 17.2 per game. Williams was in the bonus 8 minutes into the second half and the game just totally ground to a halt. Not to mention the refs seem like they are less receptive of talking and giving feedback to the players and coaches because maybe they think they are above it all as D1 referees.

St. Joe's was the better team and it is ultimately for the best that they went through, but if I were both teams I would've been pretty annoyed that our top 5 scoring defenses were being bogged down by the other team consistently getting to the line for touch fouls. You want to create an environment that is doing its best to send the better teams on to the next round, and the excessive foul calls seem to narrow the gap between any two teams. Williams really had no business being in the game from an offensive standpoint but they were able to go to the foul line a lot and keep it within a 12-16 point game for a while when it really should've been 20+.

33-9 in fouls sounds like a different story but I didn't catch any of that game so I can't comment on it. I just know that it seems like the tournament games tend to be overofficiated when they should probably be underofficiated.

The referees are evaluated all year long and chosen based on performance by the D3 MBB and WBB heads of officiating.  It's a pretty intense and competitive process.  There are no such thing as "D1" or "D3" referees.  Refs are independent contractors and choose the games/leagues they want to take for whatever reasons they choose.

No question, though, every referee assigned to a d3 NCAA tournament games has reffed d3 extensively during the regular season.

There was one outright terrible official in the Eph/Bluejay game. The other two guys were calling too much minor stuff, but they were ok otherwise. The third official was interjecting himself in really uncalled for ways. He was Williams' nightmare. Nate Karen seemed to be his target and he was relentless. Most of this took place in the first half. He was somewhat better in the second half though. I think the other two refs talked to him. He was still incompetent, but not as vengeful. This wasn't a primary reason for our loss, but it does highlight how refereeing can dramatically impact games. The gym at St Joe is so intimate, that we spectators were right next to the action, and witnessed it all "up close and personal". Kevin App, the Eph coach, picked up his only technical foul of the year. He is usually very mild mannered. That official was constantly glaring at Nate, or at Kevin. A weird situation. None of this reflects on St Joe. They were terrific, and the whole pod experience was first rate.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You'll have to keep watch.  It's unlikely that referee will see any more game action if indeed he was subpar.

[toad22]

You'll have to keep watch.  It's unlikely that referee will see any more game action if indeed he was subpar.

Thanks. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, but it was actually unique in my D3 experience, and I've probably watched at least 500 D3 games in person in the last 20 years. I'll probably get dinged about 25 karma points! There have been many officials I haven't been happy with, because of the calls they have made, or not made, but this was different. This was an attitude thing.

[jumpshot]

That same referee, the tall slender one, also mistakenly assigned a foul to the wrong Eph player, causing Coach App to withdraw that player from the game before reinserting him subsequently when the two other referees conferred and corrected his obvious error shortly thereafter. Toad is correct, that referee's incompetence was repeatedly apparent to those of us watching on-line. Not whining, just saying his performance was so inept.

[nescac1]

Was that the ref who called a five second call after I'd say a 3.5 second count?  I've never seen anything like that. 

I do wish the refs would let the players play a bit more.  In both the Tufts and Williams games lots of key players on both side kept picking up fouls and had to sit early.  Sometimes it's ok to let a tiny bit of contact go if it's not affecting the play. 

[toad22]

I'm all charged up now! I've only posted 793 times in 18 years, and this is my fourth post today!  Ryan, you mentioned that there are no D3 referees, and I agree with you. However, D1 leagues don't allow just anybody to ref their games, same for D3. The guys who ref mostly D1 games do occasionally ref in D3. However the money is so different that, at Williams anyway, we only very occasionally have guys who mostly ref D1. About 10 years ago, an Ivy League official got $1750 per game and an official doing Williams games got $175 per game - exactly 1|10th as much! In bigger leagues the disparity was even greater. Big 10 officials got $5000 per game, I believe. So, D3 certainly doesn't get the best referees. I remember Mike Maker, when he was at Williams, commenting that the only thing he had trouble getting used to, after his 20+ years in D1, was the relatively poor reffing in D3. But having written all of that, I am very thankful for our referees. We couldn't play games without them, and I read that there is getting to be a shortage of them. Hurrah for refs, especially the good ones!

[jmcozenlaw]

NESCAC is looking like the league that we all know they are so far! Wouldn't be surprised to see all 4 teams advance today. I watched Hopkins play last night and was not impressed at all by them, I expect a Hamilton win tonight on Hopkins home floor. Iron sharpens iron so let's just say that the 4 NESCAC teams are 4 of the sharpest in this tournament!!

There are posts that don't age well...........posts that are flat out wrong..........and posts that will live on, in infamy, forever.

And then, there are those rare, maybe once a decade posts, that are all three!!

This post is one of those.

"NESCAC is looking like the league that we all know they are"
"Wouldn't be surprised to see all 4 teams advance today"
"I watched Hopkins play last night and was not impressed at all by them, I expect a Hamilton win tonight on Hopkins home floor"
"Iron sharpens iron so let's just say that the 4 NESCAC teams are 4 of the sharpest in this tournament"

I don't know where to start other than by begging you to stay away from the race track and deleting all of your sports betting apps..........pronto!!

I asked the D3 guys if there has ever been a tournament where at least 9 UAA+NESCAC teams were involved........and were all out prior to the Sweet 16.

My guess is no, just based on the pure absurdity of the math involved.........but my guess is that this year might just be the first.

[names jaismith]

I saw quite a bit of each of the games yesterday.

Best performance:  Tufts, hands down. Gave a really great team all it could handle in front of a packed house on the road.  Final result could have gone either way.

Most regrets:  Middlebury for sure.  They had it going all their way in the first half when Sobel picked up a very foolish and undisciplined foul, sending him to the bench.  Nichols couldn't stop him and he will likely wish he had those minutes back.  He 's a great player whose presence commanded two defensive players. 

Had to end sometime:  Hamilton.  Major props to them, as they gave it all they had, even keeping it competitive when Singh got nicked up.  They had a great end of the season run.

Mr Hyde:  Williams.  For all their talent and ability to dominate, they just couldn't keep it together .  Sure they were beset by injuries, but they had no answer for StJ's athleticism.

For those posters who made much of the fact that no NESCAC team made the second weekend, I'd just remind them that every NESCAC team selected was in the round of 32.   

[Old Guy]

Okay, the report from Middlebury on yesterday's game (groan). I was hoping someone else would do it and I could just take the ceremonial high road and thank the players and coaches for a great season. And it was a great season, with multiple high points even though we only had 7 opportunities to watch the team at home during the season: we are all thankful that we got to host these two NCAA games. And did the local fans turn out: yesterday's attendance was  967 (who does the counting?) and the night before 1200. Very very exciting weekend of hoop. Great atmosphere. Nobody asking for a refund of their 15 bucks. Alex Sobel's dominant senior year performance will always be a highlight for longtime Panther hoop fans, and a post-pandemic blessing.

I was sitting with an old friend who had missed the previous day's Nichols game who announced when Middlebury got off to a fast start (18-8) that the outcome was ordained "we're better than they are." He was sent off with a 10 minute major misconduct penalty for that! Sobel picked up his second foul about 8 minutes in and played only about half of the first half, Nichols up 33-31 at the break. I described Nichols as "tough," "scrappy," "relentless" etc etc etc against Rochester the day before and they were all that again. They are not big, Alectus at 6'5" is their big man. They love to play downhill, mad (at times full-court) dashes to the hoop — and they have players who do it and finish, particularly #3 Ferebee (20 points) and #5 Dottin (18 points). We had trouble stopping them, especially when Sobel was not there to protect the rim. Jeff Brown was as animated as he ever can be at one point when he called time-out early in the second half and "suggested" we get back on defense with greater alacrity.

Officiating: there was considerable unhappiness on our side as we felt that the mugging of Sobel at the hoop was insufficiently acknowledged. No doubt, the rough play was strategic (Alex was 5-9 at the line), but was also just not called. There were a couple of ticky-tack calls at the end of the game, but my sense was the refs let a lot go in this one, perhaps too much so.

Nonetheless, Alex was heroic (29 points/16 boards/3blocks), certainly justifying his NESCAC honors: POY, DPOY (unprecedented?); league leader in points, rebounds, and blocks by a wide margin, and in the top ten (8th) in assists. It will be interesting to see what accolades he earns nationally. It was clear in this game if we were to come back and win, it would be the results of his efforts. — he was our advantage. We were down by as many as 13 halfway through the half and got within four, 66-62, with 2:11 left (and just three with 10 seconds left). We went to him again and again as we mounted a comeback, but we missed the shots from the outside (4-16 from three) that would have brought us even and Dottin made 4 free throws to ice it. I was told by one of our smart guys that we would win if we could outscore them (well, natch), meaning we had to score a lot of points, which we did when we beat them in December, 91-80. Nichols had a good plan defensively, applying variously half, three-quarter, and full court zone pressure. They really kept us off-balanced. It will be interesting to see how Nichols does next: this is their year — Dottin, Ferebee are seniors, Alectus (16 points) is a grad student.

As has been the case all season, this Midd team was resilient, played hard and defended well. Thanks, Boys!  The future is bright. We have lots coming back. Three frosh were essential in the rotation — McKersie, Flaks, and Witherington (17 minutes, 8 points yesterday) and seasoned players Sam Stevens, Jaden Bobbett, and Charlie Moore are all back; and there are first year players who didn't get off the bench that coaches are excited about. Next year's team will be good and fun to watch. The league will be very competitive again (six different champions in the last six years!). Can't wait!

[Pat Coleman]

So, no, there haven't been any D-III MBB NCAA Tournaments where the entire UAA and NESCAC was out before the round of 16, but that's not quite 30 tournaments, because the NESCAC was prohibited by conference rule from advancing to the NCAA Tournament until the 1993-94 season.

[Old Guy]

BRAIN CRAMP! In my marathon post, when projecting the future, next year, for the Panthers, I left off Noah Osher, a junior, a player crucial to our success last year and this (and next!), our second high scorer 13 ppg), who often helps the point bring the ball up, a good defender who plays hard and often has to guard wings taller than he. He will be an important experienced presence. I had placed him mistakenly in my head with the departing seniors. Glad I came to my senses. Even more reason for optimism!

[jumpshot]

Nescac1, yes that same referee was the one who called the obviously significantly short 5 second violation on the inbounds.

[Old Guy]

BRAIN CRAMP! In my marathon post, when projecting the future, next year, for the Panthers, I left off Noah Osher, a junior, a player crucial to our success last year and this (and next!), our second high scorer 13 ppg), who often helps the point bring the ball up, a good defender who plays hard and often has to guard wings taller than he. He will be an important experienced presence. I had placed him mistakenly in my head with the departing seniors. Glad I came to my senses. Even more reason for optimism!

I'm back! With another omission just as gross as the one above: DAVID BRENNAN. Sorry about that. Like Toad, another old guy, I don't often post multiple times and I do go away for about eight months (as of today, it's Middlebury baseball season!). I wrote that original post that didn't mention Osher and Brennan as "seasoned veterans" before the cocktail hour: can't blame Jack for it.

For most Middlebury fans, David is a great favorite for his earnest play, a favorite of those who truly love basketball beyond the score sheet. When was the last time the two leading rebounders in the league were from the same team? He is Alex Sobel's sidekick on the glass: Alex pulled down 11.8 per game, David 9.0. They just dominated the rebounding stats https://nescac.com/stats.aspx?path=mbball&year=2022 Of David's 9 a game, 5 were offensive: he extended possessions. Middlebury led NESCAC in rebounding. While Sobel is 6'8" and Brennan 6'6" we're hardly a big team beyond these two, compared to Tufts, Amherst, Williams, and others.

Brennan played 26 minutes a game (more than that, of course, in close games or big games) and took but 5 shots a game. He is the quintessential unselfish gamer. If there's a loose ball, he's on it. He undoubtedly leads the league in floor burns. He is a fierce defender. He had a rebound against Worcester Friday night in a sea of blue Worcester jerseys right in front of us, where he just said "Get outta my way. It's mine!" and had all of us in our section high fiving! And when he gets the ball in his hands, it's a vice grip.

David does not draw attention to himself, no gesticulating, complaining, or trash talk. He just plays hard, and he has the physical wherewithal to be effective, lithe and powerful. Do yourself a favor and keep your eye on #24 for Middlebury when we play against your team. As a Young Guy, I did a little high school coaching, and trust me, David Brennan is a player every coach would love to have on his team.