MBB: NESCAC

[Voyeur]

Although the '03 Ephs Team outplayed the Jeffs besides the lonesome home victory, it's hard to say that the '04 Team was really a better team.  The first game, where both teams were healthy, ended with an 18 point blowout at Lefrak Gymnasium.  The league game at Williams most likely would have ended in a similar fashion, with the Jeffs up 10 with 10 to go but both Schiel (bad thigh contusion which kept him out of his next couple of games) and Casnocha (fractured skull which ended his season) had injuries that kept them off the floor for the last 10 of the game.  A missed free throw and a huge 3 three from Kain contributed to that win, as well.  I think the loss of Casnocha is often overlooked for the '04 team.  The final four game, where Amherst was leading by 6 with 5 minutes to play, there was a key injury to Jones (stress fracture which kept him from going down the stretch) who had been dominating the Ephs on the low block.  I am not saying that the Ephs were not a good team, but just that injuries in 2 of their big games allowed them to come back when they were pinned up against a wall. 

On another note, is it me or does it seem that Paulsen is not a good recruiter?  I think he's a great game coach and gets the most out of his players, but if you look at the lineups from both Amherst and Williams the talent disparity is quite large.  He inherited the heralded class of Crotty, Coffin, and Abba from Sheahy and yes he got Tucker Cain, Newton, and now Rose, but beyond that all of his recruits seem small and/or not very talented.  Coulibaly (transfer from Dartmouth), Olson (had D1 offers), Walters (6'7" swingman), Goldsmith (6'6" guy who does everything), Hopkins (6'9" with athletic ability and touch), Jones (6'5" with great athleticism and post moves) makes up a 6 person sophomore class that would arguably be a top 4 team in the NESCAC.  I think it's fair to say that the bench of Amherst would have a good shot at taking at least 1 from the Ephs this year.  A starting lineup of Corrigan, Mclaughlin, Coulibaly, Goldsmith, and Walters/Baskauskas/Hopkins/Jones is a tough matchup for any other NESCAC team. 
The overall point is that the Ephs bench brings no significant contributors to the floor, and a lack of depth usually correlates to a lack of solid recruiting.  A Championship and a Finals appearance in consecutive years should help to bring in more talent, not less.

[formerbant10]

Voyeur, you're right in thinking that winning a title would make it easier to recruit....but for schools like Williams and Amherst it actually makes it a little more difficult.  Where most schools are still recruiting through the first part of a player's senior year Williams and Amherst often have to decide the players they want to bring in October or whenever their early decision date is.  Some of those kids who had great summers may end up getting hurt or not progressing as the coaches thought they would have during their high school season and not be as good as recruiters thought they were during a good summer.

Add that to the fact that so many parents of good student athletes want their sons/daughters to go to Williams or Amherst, I'm sure that the coaches have to sift through tons or more applicants to their program than the rest of the NESCAC schools.  Williams and Amherst could recruit solely by their name if they wanted to. 

Judging the talent of high school players before they are done being high school players is not the easiest thing.  There are bound to be busts and on the other side players who slip through the cracks of some teams and land with another. 

And it seems to me that Paulsen is the kind of guy that wouldn't BS a kid about playing time.  So when he inherited a team as good as it was, what could he tell the kids he recruited about playing time that wouldn't be a complete lie?  Do you think he would try to admit a PG when Crotty was a junior?  Or another big man to play behind Kain, Coffin and Newton?  Or how about a wing to hang out on the bench and watch Cole, Abba, Graham and then Gibbons all get in the game before him? 

Recruiting isn't simply about filling out the roster spots, good coaches want to find the right parts to their team.  I think that Paulsen has done a fine job recruiting, his young players are very good right now and will be even better next year.

[carolina]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in about the recruiting at Williams. The admissions department has raised their standards for the past two years, this year will be no different so, any good athlete that can not get into Williams will get into Amherst, Wes, Trinity and so forth. It has nothing to do with the way Paulsen recruits. He is a great coach and if he could get the athletes in he would.

[JeffRookie2]

Going back to explaining how Williams was able to easily beat a Trinity team that had beaten Amherst at home, I think the answer is simply that Trinity matches up much better against Amherst than Williams does. Amherst and Williams play similiar styles of basketball, both relying on outside shooting, efficient passing and a balanced attack. Right now, Amherst simply does all of those things better than Williams, and was thus able to beat them easily. A team like Trinity however, is great at attacking Amherst's weaknesses, most notably the Jeff's interior defense and rebounding. It seems like in every game the Jeffs lose, they are outrebounded handily and have at least one player score a bunch of points inside. (Hauben, Rhoten, that guy from Occidental) What I don't understand is how Williams (a team similar to Amherst) was able to handle Trinity so easily. Maybe you guys up in Williamstown could give us some pointers. Did you really triple-team Rhoten at times? If so, how did you contain Martin and Clarke?

[JeffRookie2]

I guarantee you that the Amherst admissions are not any more lenient in regards to admitting athletes than Williams. The football team doesn't seem to be having any difficulties.

[formerbant10]

JeffRook,

Just looking at the boxscore, Trinity did not shoot well at all.  Rhoten has been double and triple teamed most of the year and those games where the other Bants did not shoot well (Save the Eastern Game, a completely different story) they have lost.  

I listened to the game online and there were a few possessions where Trinity played solid D just to have a 3 hoisted in right before the shot clock.  Plays like those are good for more than 3 points, they can demoralize a team instantly.  And when a team makes more than one of those in a game, just imagine how you feel trying to beat a team that can't seem to do anything wrong.

The back to back games are very tough and the Ephs took full advantage of a somewhat tired Bants team.  Is Williams really 25 points better than Trinity, no shot.  But Trinity has not won in Williamstown in quite some time and they have never shot well there.  

No team will win on the road if they only make 6 buckets in the 2nd half.  Unless your Duke and take 50 ft's in the 2nd half.

And I agree with you on saying that Amherst's admissions are not any more lenient.  There was quite a discussion on the football board earlier this year with many Amherst supporters questioning Trinity's admissions standard. 

If a coach really wants to get a player (who is close to academic par) in, I have no doubt in my mind that they will be able to admit the student.  That does not have as much to do with it as one would think.

I had a conversation with a NESCAC coach this fall, and he told me that the toughest part was deciding which kids to admit through the early decision process.  He was being asked to make decisions about his recruits in September! 

Carolina, your statement is obviously pro-Williams.  But the same can be said that all those players who don't get into the Ivy Leagues can go to Williams.  Elite schools like the NESCAC will continue to raise their standards and I doubt you will be seeing a drop off in talent in any of their sports because of it.

[nescac1]

A few things.  First, the kids who don't get into Ivy Leagues for academic reasons don't end up at Williams -- I'd say the Ivies are actually more academically forgiving in terms of hoops recruits.  It's the kids who aren't quite good enough to play for the Ivies, or who are but want to get more PT earlier in their careers, who end up at Williams, etc.. 

At Williams there definitely has been a backlash regarding athletic recruit admits that I would say has outstripped, for whatever reason, the feelings at Amherst: it has been an emphasis of the new regime to scale back some of the really low-band admits in recent years.  I have heard rumors about particular guys admitted certain places that couldn't get into Williams, but I am not going to name names certainly.  I do know that at least some of the top players on the current Williams team were reported to have over 1400 SAT's.  Parker, who left Williams for Amherst, was notoriously friendly to athletic admits in a way the current Williams admission office may not be.  But, no one save the actual coaches know the full scoop.  I think certain sports may be favored at certain schools as well, like for instance Hixon may have more pull than Paulsen with the Amherst recruiting office, while perhaps soccer would have more pull at Williams, but again that is just barely-educated speculation.  I would think that a coach, like Hixon, with longer tenure might have more sway in the admissions office.  The only period I know for certain that there was a dramatic difference in standards between the schools was when Amherst was first trying to revitalize its football program after its long-time coach retired, and that seemed to be a temporary blip to just turn the program around. 

Finally, as to how Williams was able to win so easily, I think formerbant had it partially right.  Williams hit some really, really tough shots, one prayer apiece by Shalovy and Snyder that were real back-breakers.  Trinity definitely looked a little tired, par for the course in day two of NESCAC road weekends, and Williams was effective running the ball, something they could not do AT ALL against Amherst.  The double and triple teams on Rhoten definitely resulted in a lot of turnovers, he didn't have the greatest passing day.  Williams was a lot more aggressive rebounding and going after loose balls than they were the day before, not exactly sure why, but they were  the more passionate team out there against Trinity, played with a ton of fire.  And Trinity's outside shooters, Clark in particular, just couldn't buy a shot (and most didn't look like they even wanted to shoot).  So it was really a combination of things.  But it seems like teams are better off doubling Rhoten and taking their chances against Trinity's other guys, because one-on-one he will burn you.  It seems like Trinity had an unusally good day from the outside against Amherst, and an unusually bad day against the Ephs.  Williams had a similar experience at Bates, where tired legs and some missed opportunities from the outside led to being blown out by a team that probably should have won, but not as easily. 

[nescac1]

By the way, I'm not saying that anyone on Amherst's team necessarily wouldn't have been admitted to Williams as well, I really have no idea.  I just mean to say there are lots of potential factors to explain the recent recruiting differential, and to just say flat out that Paulsen is not an effective recruiter is really unfair since none of us know the full set of constraints he is operating on (and in any event, assistants are responsible for a huge percentage of recruiting -- Williams had a ton of turnover with pretty much its entire staff moving on after the 03/04 seasons, so it may just take a little time for the new, young assistants to establish a recruiting network).  He has certainly managed to bring in some very solid players from all over the country -- California, PA, Colorado, New Jersey, New York, etc. -- over the past few years.  If the Ephs can land 1-2 star quality posts in the next year or so, they could well close the talent gap with Amherst because I don't see a huge difference, overall, in the underclassmen -- Amherst just had a lot more juniors and seniors who are major contributors right now. 

[walzy31]

I'll preface this post by saying "This is a pro-Amherst post".

Just to correct my man Voyer, Coulibaly transferred from Brown not Dartmouth. The past is the past...Yes, Coffin, Abba, Crotchy, and all the rest of the choir boys were excellent basketball players. Yes Amherst had some injuries (add Bedford's ankle and Zieja's knees to the previous listings). Who's winning NESCAC's this year? That's what I want to know. Formerbant PLAYED in this conference and you don't see him bringing up this win and that win...or that injury or bad call.

Williams fortune of Trinity's terrible shooting on Saturday stands out the most to me. I'll give them the two deep threes at the buzzer and I'm sure they played inspired defense, but Pat Martin and Kino Clarke combined for next to nothing offensively. That was a chance they were willing to take to stop Ty (24 shots per game) Rhoten...and it defintely paid off. Teams are bound to have poor shooting nights, you just hope you get them against Maine Presque Isle or MCLA and not Williams or any competitive team.

nescac1,

Why did you have to bring soccer into this forum? I don't bring what you do in here. I'm just kidding...don't go nutz over there guy.

As for Amherst admissions and Dean Parker: There was an article in the NYTimes not long ago explaining how every NESCAC school has the same amount of total student athletes (something like 60) who otherwise would have been in the question mark range. Certain teams don't get special treatment nor do certain coaches. Amherst, Williams and other NESCAC schools self-recruit based on the quality of the school. I do think that Williams/Paulsen has dropped the ball recruiting in the past two years, but the remedy for that situation should not be to lower admissions standards. That should not be the policy for Williams hoops or any football program trying to compete with Trinity. Right now Trinity gets the best football players looking at NESCAC schools because the recruits think "hey, I can go to a good school and not lose more than 2 games in my four year career." No one wants to lose. The basketball recruits are coming to Amherst because they will win 90+ games in four years. Middlebury dominates all stick sports (Hockey/Lacrosse) and they're not admitting student atheletes that don't belong there. Success breeds success.

Let's just ease up on scrutinizing admissions programs and get back to the hardwood. This weekend is going to be sweet.

[formerbant10]

This is a pro-Walzy post.

The success breeds success is dead on. 

Nescac1, the Ivy league is not nearly as academically forgiving as you would think, and every school no matter who they are can get in a recruit if they really want to.  Believe that.  And in no way was I saying that Paulsen or Hixon are bad recruiters...it is pretty damn obvious that they are just the opposite to me.  And there are plenty of players on each team that could have gone to any of the NESCAC schools.  I happen to know personally a few who could've gone to Williams and didn't.

And I agree with your statement about the underclassmen at both Williams and Amherst.  But right now I'd give the advantage to the Williams youngsters as they are playing significant roles while Amherst has Olson running the show with a few more upperclassmen.  Both schools do a great job recruiting.  Amherst so much that they seem to have just as many players as the football team in their box scores.

As for Trinity, they had been red hot the entire semester until this past game against Williams.  Shooters are bound to have a bad night everyonce in awhile, that's part of the game.  Will Clarke and Martin shoot terribly every game?  No.  Martin is starting to find his stroke, especially at home and Clarke has always been streaky but usually comes up with a few big shots every game.  Is it possible they may come up dry again, yes.  But Trinity plays great defense at home and shoots better there as well.  So I like their odds for this weekend. 

[nescachoopsfan]

ill start out saying that i am slightly biased in favor of the jumbos of tufts university, but i feel like in these discussions they rarely get the credit they deserve.  Although yes they did lose to an unimpressive bowdoin team and in a heartbreaker to williams, (which might be enough to write the team off in some peoples books) but they handled "the hottest team in america" by 15 this saturday and have many other impressive wins.  another thing is that yes they havent played against trinity or amherst yet, and i guess a lot of questions will be answered this weekend, but tufts is one of the hardest teams to play against.  they scored 91 points on a team that averages 58 points allowed per game.  And while they do give up 74 ppg they are 3rd in field goal percentage allowed and 2nd in ppg.  dan martin two time nescac player of the week is easily the second best big man in the conference and having a season as good as anyone else in the league. 
Now i guess im done bringing up stats and things of the sort, but my main point is that when tufts wins a game, i think the general attitude is that they got lucky or upset a good team, while i think they are better than everyteam they have played so far, with the exception of wittenberg (no. 2 in the nation).  unfourtunatley the weakness of the team is overall consistency of intensity that they bring to the games.  but as shown this saturday they should be ready for a weekend that determines the season.

[formerbant10]

I don't think people feel Tufts is lucky when they win.  I think that there are many posters from Medford on this board, which is why they aren't getting the credit they deserve.

I can't agree that Dan Martin is easily the 2nd best big man in the league, Drew Cohen is having just as good a season if not better.  2nd in scoring, 1st in rebounding, shooting well from the FT line (he's made 117 so far), and leading the NCAA in blocked shots.  And I know Tufts beat Colby, but guess who was missing in that game due to a family wedding.

And I did predict that they would beat Bates in an earlier post.

[Red1]

Hi all,

A couple of things I'd like to address:

1.  On the aside from Nescac 1 about an SAT score of 1400.  It doesn't mean that much.  It only measures how well you took a test on a given day.  I knew someone from my high school who got a 1500 on his SAT, but had a gpa of 2.4.  He was a good tester, but he had a poor work ethic, and didn't get very good grades.  I got a 1420 on my SATs, but I'm no athlete and had no chance of getting in to Williams or Amherst because my 3.6 gpa wasn't good enough.   It's the grades, the extracurriculars (especially athletics), and the work ethic that matter most.  The SATs are just gravy.

2.  I highly agree that success breeds success, and that's definitely a big proponent of why Williams, Amherst, and the Ivy's do so well, but all of these schools are academically forgiving to athletes too.  Someone mentioned that all Nescac schools are forgiving to athletes and that is certainly true, but Williams and Amherst have both admitted in the past that they are willing to dip further into their "questionable area"  then the rest of Nescac is generally willing to dip into their's.  Remember that each schools questionable area is different.  I don't question that many athletes who get into Williams and Amherst might not get into the other nescac schools, but I question whether some would get into Williams and Amherst, even with their academic forgiveness to athletes, if those schools weren't willing to drop down even a little further.   Take note that this is something that these schools have admitted to doing in the past, and they've both said that they were going to curb that attitude, and I believe they are beginning to do that.

3.  Formerbant,  The IVY league is far more academically forgiving then most people realize.  That friend I mentioned earlier with the 1500 SAT but only 2.4 gpa went to Princeton, and let me assure you, it was not a merrit based admission given his 2.4 gpa.  He was a great athlete, and that's why he got in.  (Before anyone surmises, no, he was not a minority student in any way.)

4.    This is in reference to Nescac1's earlier post that concludes with a trip to Bates that Williams should have played a lot closer.   I wonder why Bates isn't receiving any credit for their defense in that game?  Williams missed a lot of 3s.  Yes they may have been a little tired, but Bates made a point to contest every three that Williams took, and Bates scoring defense, is one of the best in the country as is their field goal % defense.  I'd argue that it wasn't as much Williams' fatigue as it was Bates' solid defense that caused Williams to miss those threes.

5.  Tufts wasn't lucky at all when they beat Bates.  The Jumbos completely out played the Bobcats this past weekend.  Granted I didn't expect it.  Tufts is not generally known for defense, and Bates is, so I thought the combination would lean in favor of Bates.  Clearly Tufts' offense was too much for the Bobcat defense this weekend.

Okay, sorry for the venting, these Amherst/Williams arguments always get me going like that, but I think what I said needed to be said.

Cheers,
Red1

[dman]

i'll take amherst to sweep this weekend and probably win the league, whether at home or in hartford...it's the rest of the league that concerns me.  i'm really pulling for williams to do what tufts couldn't do, and that was take two on the road against colby and bowdoin. and speaking of luck, i give them about a 1 in 4 shot.  four years ago, a better eph team had a chance to clinch the regular season title, but couldn't pull a weekend sweep.  it's just really hard in nescac to win back to back road games at all (but especially in maine).  just ask trinity.

overall, the league is as good this year as ever, and really has 5 teams that could compete in the ncaa's.  i'm wondering why trinity only has 22 games this year.  it might not hurt them if they can win two this weekend- then they host and will likely get a bid.  that leaves tufts, bates, and williams to fight it out for one and possibly two more bids, depending on the breaks...time will tell....

jeffrookie, i hope you and walzy are not betting the ranch with your guarantee, because i think you're wrong and nescac1 is closer to the truth...i think each nescac school divides its athletic "tips" up the way they want to, meaning that some teams do get "special treatment"....

[walzy31]

dman,
I don't own a ranch and I don't bet on sports outcomes.

Since there are 2 conference games left and I am itching to rewrite my predictions, here is my all-conference awards.

First Team

Bedford
Rhoten
Cohen
Ray
(winner of post season tourny gets a second player here inplace of starred 2nd teamer - d. martin, rose, or petrie if they win it)


Second Team

Olson*
Rose
Petrie
D. Martin
Stockwell*
Clarke/Wheeler

Snubs: Stone, Weitzen, and either Clarke or Wheeler


Player of the Year: Bedford (Rhoten didn't get it last year either)

Defensive Player of the Year: Cohen (kid has more blocks than 8 different TEAMS in nescac--as many as williams and bates combined)

Rookie of the Year: Ben Rudin of Midd (leading conference rooks in scoring[24th overall] and assists [6th overall]. )

Coach of the Year: Goes to the winner of the post season tourny.