MBB: NESCAC

[carolina]

blacklordjeff

I think your post was well said. I do not know why everyone is arguing over teams. The Nescac is, in my opinion the best conference. Yes I would like Williams to win but if they can't then I would want any NESCAC school to go as far as they can. Injuries are a part of the game and to say the Ephs were lucky might be true but that goes with the territory. Injuries happen in all sports.

As far as the recruiting, I know for a fact that the Williams coaches only get two hitstips on athlete when talking to Admissions. So, if they have a third or fourth they want to get in and they do not meet the qualifications they will not get in.

Also, the Williams game against Trinity. Why cant people say the Ephs played a good game. Yes Trinity may not have played there best but the Ephs deserve some credit. They played the best they played all year. You dont hear people saying the Ephs played bad against Amherst and that is why Amherst won.  Amherst won because they were the better team!!!!! I do not have a problem admitting that as an Eph's fan but give the Eph's their due against Trinity. They played great regardless of what Trinity did. If Trinity was that good then if one or two of their players had an off night the rest of the team should have picked it up.

I also like the comic book reference!!!!!!

[senatorfrost]

 My use of the term "Lunch Pail" refers to a post I read about two years ago. In it, a Williams fan referred to Williams players as "lunch Pail" guys, guys who worked hard and showed up every day with no fancy stuff. Then either the same person or maybe another poster said that Amherst players arrived by Chauffered Limousine.Actually The Lunch Pail Post might be one of my two or three all time favorites, for as you can see I still refer to it today. I kind of saw the logic/imagery behind it.I don't think it was an analogy because it seemed like 'Lunch Pail" was being used as an adjective- I mean a Lunch Pail does not do anything by itself.
Interesting about Zieja-I didn't notice anything until his Junior year and after that it appeared to get worse. Yes injuries are part of the game and my hope is that all personal stuff does not return. There is a difference between saying that Williams beat Amherst back when and then even naming the years, if one is so inclined. Saying that Amherst never won the big ones or something of that sort is where it STARTS to become personal.
As far as Bedford is concerned I think he could guard some of the point guards. As far as POY is concerned, if Rhoten gets it, so be it. The Amherst fans who appresciate good basketball know how lucky they have been, to have been able to see Bedford play as many times as they have. Sometimes I ask myself if there is life after Bedford? Of course there is, but I do ask the stupid question sometimes anyway.
   

[formerbant10]

Senator,

Did you think there would be life after Zeija?  Or Schiel?  There just may be life after Bedford, I think you may soon call it life after Olson.  Amherst has had a long line of great players.  I too would hope that the fans up there appreciate what they have been able to witness at each home game over the past few years, it has been amazing.

I don't get why every is so down on Rhoten, why do you make the comment "so be it" if he finally wins the award?  Obviously I have my biases as everyone else does, but the kid has been one of the top scorers in the country since his freshman year.  Nobody else in the conference can say that, can they?  In both games against Amherst last year he completely outplayed Schiel, the last one with a broken foot.  One could make the argument that Rhoten deserved it last year.  Some posters last year felt that Schiel wasn't the most deserving of the award on his own team let alone the conference.

Carolina,

What more can one say other than it was a game where Williams could do no wrong, and Trinity no right?  That to me says that Williams was the better team in that particular game.  They played a great game, executed on offense and played great defensively.  Would they beat Trinity every game, I don't think so....but they did this past weekend and right now that's all that matters.

And the NESCAC coaches have limited tips and they are given out by the Athletic Department according to some formula someone on the football board diagrammed.  They all have their restrictions, and I don't doubt that every one of them has a way around it too.

As far as the "Lunch Pail" guys go, I think it's pretty interesting to hear what Williams and Amherst guys think of each other.  It's funny to hear that they both think the other ones are spoiled.  Looking at their facilities among other things, both teams could be seen as arriving via red carpet.

[senatorfrost]

 "So be it" simply means that I will not gripe about it like I did last year. I thought last year that if the award was going to an Amherst player, that it should go to Bedford. I also mentioned, I believe, that Rhoten probably deserved it last year. This year either Bedford or Rhoten would be fine with me. The important thing is the NCAA Tourney and hopefully  making the Final Four.
  I might add that I have ALWAYS rooted for the Ephs after Amherst was eliminated. A few more final fours and maybe NESCAC, as a conference,will become half as good as the CCIW thinks they are.

[jess74]

Nice Amherst win tonight heading into a big weekend. (99-76).  Wheeler with 24 pts on 8/10 shooting...the boys are coming together.

[JeffRookie2]

are you related to dan wheeler... and if so, is this going to turn into one of those awkward kurt warner's wife moments?

[Voyeur]

Formerbant,

If you really think that other NESCAC schools have tougher admissions than Amherst and Williams you are foolish.  Both of these schools are the hardest schools to get into in the conference.  You are a Trinity alumnus so you must know that Trinity is slowly turning into, especially when it comes to football, the laughing stock of the NESCAC academically when it comes to athletes.  Also, saying that it's tougher to recruit to a school that has good players is ridiculous.  If you would rather go to a worse basketball institution just because you would have a better chance to play, then you are not a true competitor.  I honestly cannot believe that you would say players would not want to go to Williams to sit behind players for a couple years in order to wait their turn to continue a winning legacy.  Not all players can have or should expect to have the impact that Rhoten had his freshman year.  The fact that good players have to wait a year or two in order to make an impact on their program reflects on the type of program that the school has.  Freshman or Sophomores should not be the players that you rely on to have a successful season.  I have read many of your posts before and it's hard to read some of the past posts you have stated.

Beyond that I think that Amherst will and should be the favorite in the conference next year.  Bates and Trinity will be the only teams in their league with Bates probably being the best matchup.  Watching the young players play and the talent pool that they have I am going to go out on a limb and say that the Amherst Lord Jeffs will be the 2008 National Champions.  I know this may sound crazy but have faith in an Amherst faithful that has watched multiple games this year. 

1st Team
Rhoten
Bedford
Cohen
Rose
Ray

2nd Team
Olson
Stockwell
Martin (tufts)
Petrie
Wheeler

Clarke could go in for Wheeler but I think that Wheeler is a much better all around player.  Lefrak Gymnasium for NESCAC '06!!!!!!!
 

[frank uible]

Voyeur: I don't know anything about basketball, but I do know gambling, and if you will let me take the field, I'll give you Amherst for the 2008 NCAA championship - for a pizza of the winner's choice (and 2 Northampton Pale Ales) at Paradiso all paid by the loser.

[walzy31]

BLJ,

Good to have you back brother.

Formerbant,

Amherst home games the past four years have been great. Zieja-Fitzy-Faulkner-Neil, followed by Donovan-Harper-Jones-DQ, followed by Lee-Schiel, now Bedford-Casnocha-RC-KZ and next year OShea-Wheeler-McLaughlin-Sa. I will add that I have only seen 5 or 6 losses at home in those 4 years (2 to your bants, 2 to Filliams and one to Rochester's talented thugs last year in ncaas). 20-2 this year aint bad. I was unaware of the top 25 record that we are chasing. I hope it is accurate and I hope we get it. Thanks for the heads up.

Hoopsfan,

Yeh, I think Amherst did look past Lasell to Bates and Tufts. Where was Holyoke's finest last night? I'm referring to Max Perez who dropped 30 on us last year in a loss.

SenatorFrost,

I don't ALWAYS root for the Ephs once the Jeffs are out! In fact, I NEVER route for the Ephs, in any sport, period.

[dman]

way too early to annoint the all-league teams, so i will digress...i've always looked at nescac hoop players as super-heroes whose accomplishments are the stuff of folk-lore.  i'm going to let blj handle the comic-book stuff and coloring books, since that's what he studied at amherts.  i'm thinking of starting a bubble-gum trading card business, and next year, we're definitely doing a fantasy league....
meanwhile, i can only imagine what would have happened if steve zieja had been healthy.  we'd be comparing him to that guy on the lakers, and i don't mean devean george!!! being a local kid, steve could ride the pvta bus to springfield for his enshrinement in 2029.....

senator,  you have hit it right on the head.  nescac gets very little respect from crybabies on other boards (not necessarily the cciw, who i do think is the premiere league!)....

and walzy, williams has only beaten the herst on their own floor once in the last ten years....and i really rooted for amherst against john carroll.....

[formerbant10]

Voyeur, where in my post did I ever say that Trinity was at the same level academically as Williams and Amherst??  You're reading way too much into what I'm saying.  And where did I say that good players don't want to sit behind great players so they should choose other schools??  Next time you try to critique what I'm saying, read the posts correctly. 

I was saying how Hixon and Paulsen have a tougher time recruiting because of the level of their schools athletics and academics.  They also have to make a decision way before they should have to so they can get their players in through the early decision process.  I also stated that every school gets in athletes that are sub-par academically, Williams and Amherst along with Duke, Princeton, Stanford, Notre Dame, Trinity, BC and every other school in the entire United States. 

And please don't try to pretend like you know me and question my competitive drive.  I have more respect than you would know for programs like Williams, Amherst, Bates and the rest of the conference teams.  I congratulated the "Lunch Pail" guys when I saw them in San Antonio after their senior season.  I wished the Amherst boys the best of luck after they beat us last year and hoped that they would win the whole thing. 

Not once in my posts have I slammed their programs, that's not what I'm about.  Get over yourself.

And I'm also noticing how Trinity football has made the rest of the league a laughing stock when trying to compete on the field.  You can now start whining about how all the football players are idiots.  You're right, they a bunch of overgrown, superhuman, athletes who can't spell their own names. 

[formerbant10]

Walzy, as I was told I thought that Trinity was the only one to beat Amherst on their own court for quite some time till the Rochester game.  I thought they always beat Williams at Amherst, at least regular season wise.

And Dman, if we're doing a fantasy league next year I'm taking Drew Cohen 1st overall.  Monster numbers this year, even more next year.

[nescac1]

Man, the level of vitriol on this board has ratcheted up -- must almost be conference tourney time!  Hey, at least we all can agree that NESCAC gets a raw deal from most of the other posters on d3hoops.com, with constant complaints about our tourney system, level of competition, etc.   Whatever advantages NESCAC has, the other posters harp only on those and not the many obstacles NESCAC schools have to overcome: recruiting restrictions, academic requirements, shorter pre-season practice period, skeptical glances from many alums who get nervous at any sort of athletic prominence, high tuitions, etc.

Although, once again, SOSI's (which of course is a ridiculous system) should help the NESCAC out.  Hypothetically, if Williams wins out this weekend and the road/home teams split in the big showdown weekend, NESCAC would likely have five teams in the top 30 nationally, SOSI wise (even a win/loss combo would barely hurt, perhaps even help, a team like Tufts because the loss would be a "good loss" to a plus .667 team; two losses by anyone this weekend, or one loss by Williams, would be brutal to at-large hopes).  If four of the big five can also manage first-round tourney wins (obviously, not all five can) that would give NESCAC an outstanding chance of 4 teams in, and a credible shot at 5.   I think, formerbant, that Trinity is in the most danger, and most in need of a sweep this weekend, because they get screwed by the idiotic regional criteria -- two of Trinity's three really big wins to date don't count for SOSI, and hence for the selection criteria.  If Trinity loses to Bates or Tufts (and Williams can manage the tough Maine sweep) they are in serious danger of ending up in the dreaded 4/5 game in this year's NESCAC tourney.  And of course a sweep guarantees them first.  Really the most to gain and lose based on their performance this weekend.  I'd be shocked if Amherst lost another game at home, but anything is possible.   A hot Bates team, in particular, could give Amherst trouble. 

I'll predict who I think will make the all-league team.  Coaches tend to be biased towards seniors and towards guys from winning teams, and this is reflective of that:

1st team: Rhoten, Bedford, Petrie, Martin, Stockwell
2nd team: Ray, Rose, Cohen, Olson, Stone

other possibles: Newton (although if knee problems continue to limit his minutes the next two weeks, he won't have a shot -- no one has mentioned him, but he is a senior who has come back from major surgery to post some of the best overall numbers in the league), Wheeler or Clarke could all muscle out Olson or Stone, depending on what happens this weekend.  Wholey and Weitzen are each a year away from contention.   Cohen could displace Martin, but given that Martin is a senior, is on a major roll, and is on a much more successful team,  I think he has the edge.  He's certainly, along with Rose, the most improved player.  Not a ton of guards on the list, but it's a front-court heavy league this year.  That will all change next year when many of the top post players depart, but pretty much every top-notch guard in the league save Bedford returns. 

ROY and DPY everyone agrees on.  I think they'll split the baby and name Bedford and Rhoten co-players of the year, which is probably fair.  I'd take Bedford but I have seen him a lot more than Rhoten, and it's hard to argue with Rhoten's career accomplishments. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The NESCAC currently has five teams in the top 33 of QOWI.

[formerbant10]

In my humble opinion, Drew Cohen is the most valuable player to his team in the conference.  It would've been nice if he was around for the Tufts game to see who is better head to head, him or D. Martin.  The coaches are partial to seniors, but not when it comes to choosing between first and second team.  They do want the seniors to get some all-conference recognition but the top 5 will get first team, no matter what class year they are.

Trinity is in danger if they lose 2 games this weekend.  But if they lose to both Tufts and Bates at home, do they deserve to play far into the postseason?  Amherst shouldn't have a problem as long as they make the conference semi's.  Bates I think is in the same boat if they split this weekend.  Tufts would be in great position if they get a win this weekend as well.  Williams needs the sweep and a finals appearance to solidify their bid, but they still have a shot. 

What would really help the entire conference is if Middlebury gets into the tournament so there are 8 teams with .500+ records.  That would give the first round wins a little more merit in the QOWI.  Then even if Amherst were to lose at home, it would not be nearly as bad as losing to Colby and their bid would not be hurt at all.