MBB: NESCAC

[bed]

Hamilton had a tough time with Plattsburgh which is further evidence that they will struggle to stay in the game with Amherst.

The Contientals and Jeffs will be a hell of a game, but I just don't see Hamilton being able to do any one thing good enough to take Amherst out of their game plan.  Hamilton would have to get out to a lead early......and make Amherst play from behind.  If Hamilton gets behind early, I think Amherst will be able to use the crowd to its advantage.

I see Hamilton hanging around for the whole game, but never really making a significant run to get close enough to scare the Jeffs.  However, if Hamilton can be in the game down the stretch (say 5:00 minute mark of the 2nd half), then we could have an upset in the making.

[nescacfan33]

hamilton is not going to compete with amherst. No chance. Amherst is just a little bit better everywhere on the court. But if amherst does play a very poor game (which wont happen at home), hamilton could pull off a shocker.

Formerbant,

Well I am going to just simply disagree with the Ashe,  Clarke, and Martin talk. I saw Ashe play against you last year in the regular season (when he got hurt) but I missed the playoff game. He was VERY good (as was your game). Played your guards well. Went to the hole at will. Anyways, I understand your points about Martin and Clarke. But to say it is absurd that Ashe could handle both Clarke and Martin is just plain wrong in my opinion. Very wrong. Rhoten MAKES that team. And then some. He was a top 5-10 player in the country. He made those two MUCH MUCH better. It will be interesting to see what they do without an absolute superstar scorer on their team. Switch Ashe with either and I think he does better than both. He would be scary with a great scoring big man like Rhoten as he would be with Robert Kelly. And I agree that numbers/stats don't always mean everything, but it does show consistency and a grasp of an overall season. Can't shy from numbers and say that they dont represent a person's game. Martin had rust? From what? He didnt miss any time or a season? He should have been firing from the beginning. He is good and had a nice strecth during the final weeks, but was not exceptional for a decent part of the season. Lets see Trinity without Rhoten. They couldnt make the NCAAs with him, they sure wont make it without him.  Anyways, I think those guards don't improve much without Rhoten. Especially Clarke.

[eholmes]

actually pat martin did miss time, the second semester of last season. not to mention he didnt play enough at BU to hit his stride when he was on the team, which is just what he did at the end of this season.

[nescac1]

I think that Olsen and Ray are the top echelon of point guards in the league, but after that, it's hard to say Martin is better than anyone in the next group, including Shalvoy, Ashe, Black/Shepherd, perhaps even Farrell/Bradley/Rudin, those guys are all on the same level more or less.  Shalvoy badly outplayed Martin in the Trinity/Williams match-up head-to-head I thought, and Shalvoy lead the leage in assists, assist-to-TO ratio, and is the top free throw shooter around.  He had a tough shooting stretch mid-season and had trouble (like the rest of the Ephs) against Amherst, but otherwise had to carry the Ephs at times along with Rose.  He hit several clutch game-winning shots during the season including a big one on the road vs. Tufts as well.  Overall, his stats for the year were better than Martin's across the board, and I'd say, overall, Shalvoy had less talent around him (certainly no one at Rhoten's level of play).  Also, Shalvoy really had to do all of the ball-handling on his team; Martin got to play wiht Clarke who had some point skills.  I think that on any given day, pretty much any NESCAC point guard listed above could outplay the others; Olsen and Ray stand out because of their consistent excellence.  I realize Martin has the pedigree, but the fact is, despite getting lots of open looks with all the attention received by Rhoten, his outside shooting didn't really get it done.  I imagine he'll be better after a full year in the system, but better than Ashe or Shalvoy?  I don't think so ... right now I'd say he's middle-of-the-pack point guard in the league.  I mean, something has to give -- if Rhoten was far and away the best player, and Martin in the top 3 point guards, and Clarke in the top 12 players, and Russ Martin impossible to stop, and Westbrooks a superstar, why didn't Trinity win the league or at least finish second?  I think Trinity's talent level is pretty much even with Bates, as the results of the season demonstrated. 

[auerbach]

sorry fellas but i'm not informed well enough to be mixing it up with you guys. some things confuse me. what is wes tech? how come nobody talks about williams,have they fallen that far ? why so much talk about trinity and so little about tufts? lot of talk about trinity talent...does the team need two balls on the floor ? bates non-existant in this whole thing.everybody seems to be afraid of formerbant,who is he? i listened to plattsburgh-hamilton last night....sad that both guys missed two ft in clutch situations.

[formerbant10]

Auerbach,

Wes Tech is another name for Wesleyan University.  And I'm nobody special.

NESCAC1,

Looking at the League Leaders it seems that Kino Clarke is actually the top FT shooter around, not Shalvoy.  Shalvoy seems to have improved a lot, which is great for him (he got thrown right into the fire last year and survived, glad to see him doing well).  Believe it or not Trinity did finish 2nd in the NESCAC and were the only team to beat Amherst.  It seems like everyone forgets this.  Their two losses in the league were to a hot shooting Williams team on the road and a talented Tufts team in OT.  They then lost again to Tufts in OT in the semifinals.  

Kino Clarke is not a point guard.  He has not been for Trinity and will not be.  Just because he is the smallest guy on the floor does not mean he's the point guard.  Clarke is a natural scorer.  He loves to play on the wing and get out and run.  He'll bring the ball up if he has to, but that has been a rare case the last two years.  Farrell and Hasiuk were the point guards last year, Pat Martin played nearly all the minutes at the point this year.  The only reason Clarke played the point at all this year is because of the injury to Pat Hasiuk.  During the final stretch of the year, Pat Martin averaged close to 40 minutes including playing all 45 against Tufts in the semifinals, so to say that Shalvoy is the only one with the burden of playing the point is wrong.

NESCAC33,

The one thing you might have noticed in that Wesleyan game was our point guards last year were not the best of defenders.  The other thing you might have noticed is that Jared Ashe cannot dribble with his left hand.  Ashe is a very tough player, but he's not a basketball player.  He is a tremendous athlete who can play hoops.  If he's so good do you think he'd get minutes at Williams or Amherst or Bates as the point over those guys?  He wouldn't start at Trinity either.  And Ashe had Rob Kelley on his team the last 2 years, how come he didn't put up the numbers (or wins) that you say he's capable of?  

As Eholmes stated, Martin did not play in the 2nd semester last year.  He did not play a lot in the 1st semester either, so he pretty much hasn't played in a year.  That's where the rust comes from.

As for saying that Russ Martin is unstopable, I never said that but he did shoot nearly 60% from the field, better than the rest of the conference.  Westbrooks is not a superstar just yet.  I said he has the potential to be the best in that class, but potential is not always fulfilled.  And to be honest, Trinity might have the most talented 8 players next year.  Pat and Russ Martin, Mike Hoar, Kino Clarke, Aaron Westbrooks, Paul Rowe, Pat Hasiuk (back from injury) and former NESCAC ROY Robert Taylor III (back from LA).  I think those guys will be just fine next year.

[CCsalive]

Formerbant- Clarke and P. Martin are not "unsung." Everyone knows their talent. I felt that R. Martin was unsung.

Even Ashe is not unsung because so many of you suck up to him. That said, Wes winning NESCACS in soccer is a great thing for the league and for the Cardninals. BTW, Wes-Tech is a derivitive of Ham-tech(see "Camp Trin Trin" and "Club Midd"), my alma mater, who squeaked by Plattsburgh last night...two missed free-throws by BOTH teams in the final 19 seconds of OT in a one-point game...can you say March Madness?

Spengler-I'm hurt. Should I be spell-checking derivitive? Who F-in cares? The bottom-line is Williams has a national champs banner and you don't.

I'm rooting for Hamilton Saturday, but I will not be there. Should the Jeffs advance I will support them through Salem. My critique is balanced. Pardon me, for touting the abundance of talent on the Jeff's bench. I believe I also complimented the "superiority of an Amherst education." 

[nescac1]

Quickly, Shalvoy shot 90 percent from the line.  He is not on league leaders b/c he was just a few free throws short of qualifying.  If you compare stats, Shalvoy easily outshot Martin from 1, 2, and 3 point range, he had more assists and fewer turnovers, and he outplayed him head-to-head, so basically in every important point guard criteria, he wins.  I can't see how you can say that Martin is "better" based on that, particularly when he had a more talented team around him overall.  Not to mention, Martin is a junior with 1.5 years experience playing division I ball, while Shalvoy is only a sophomore.

I do agree that Trinity should be tough next year.  Losing Rhoten might even be a "Ewing theory" situation where the rest of the team raises its level of play to compensate, and in any event, adding Taylor plus Hasiuk pretty much balance out losing Rhoten.  Trinity won't have the one go-to guy but they will be very, very deep.  NESCAC will be brutal next year and far more balanced that it has been of late.  Amherst will still be the class of the league, but the gap should close substantially with the senior class they are graduating, Bates and Tufts should both be big-time teams, and Trinity, Williams, Conn College, and even possibly Colby, could all legitimately contend with the right additions and chemistry.  Even the bottom-feeders, Midd and Wes, should both be much better, especially Wesleyan if Taylor returns.  Bowdoin is the only team that might be down a notch, because it is hard to imagine who will fill the void created by Petrie's departure.  But they'll all be chasing Amherst again until someone proves they can take the Jeffs down ... and by the way, I doubt it will be Hamilton this weekend.  Williams beat Hamilton on the road this year and they weren't, unfortunately, close to competing with Amherst, particuarly once Amherst turned it on late in the season.  I'd be pretty shocked if Amherst didn't make the final four.  They've proven they can handle Tufts even when Tufts is red-hot, WPI is much, much too small to stand a chance, really only the SUNY school, who is the big unknown, is a legit threat.  No one like Rochester in the bracket, for certain.  At the final four, anything is possible, as there does not seem to be a dominant Stevens-Point type of team around this year. It was supposed to be Illinois Wesleyan, but I see they have many losses somehow.  

[formerbant10]

CC,

Good point on Clarke and P. Martin not being unsung.  Both of them received player of the week honors, so clearly the coaches must think something of them.  Russ Martin is the most unsung out of the group.

Does every campus/school have a cool nickname?  What would Amherst/Williams be?

nescac1,

Thanks for pointing out that info on Shalvoy.  That being said, he should've tried to get to the line more if he's such a great shooter.  I know I'm being picky there and that they shot a ton of 3's so it probably wasn't possible.  Either way, I'm still picking Pat Martin over Shalvoy any day of the week.

[nescacfan33]

nescac1,

Good stuff on the point guards in the league. Ray/Olson are probably a little bit better than that great second tier of points. Black/Shepherd, Martin, Ashe, Shalvoy, Farrell, even Rudin and Bradley. It is a very good group, but it is tough to separate those 6 or 7. That is all I was trying to say Formerbant. I just don't think Martin is heads above anyone there. I would be willing to put most of those guys into Martin's spot this year and say the Bants do the exact same.  But we'll obviously see a lot more next year when guard play is relied on much more for the Bants. Like I said, I think the team is going to really have some questions without Rhoten. Clarke and Martin will be one of the best backcourts in the league though, maybe the best.

[CCsalive]

Perhaps Ashe is also too-hyped to be considered "unsung." On the other hand, if you talked to coaches around the league I would be shocked if anyone would  not want Nick Pellatier on their team. He has size and strength and is quite-talented...you wonder why he went to Wes. Must be the naked parties.

formerbant: I've also heard "Camp Bo Bo." Hamiltonians embrace the Ham-tech nickname...it can be found on t-shirts, etc.

[formerbant10]

I know the home coming T shirts for Trinity Alums were Camp Trin Counselor shirts. 

My favorite was when the student body was given Trinity Cockpit tees for home basketball games. 

And it looks like Andrew Olson shot 94.4% from the line and Mike Hoar shot 90.9% from the line meaning Shalvoy was not the best around after all.  89.6% is no slouch by any means though.

[CCsalive]

I had no idea any of those guys were so strong at the line. Most impressive for Hoar...I'm intrigued by Trinity for next year...I'd like to see them pound it inside more...particularly if Hoar is going to make all his free-throws...I agree with the Ewing scenerio in regard to Rhoten...his 15 ft jumpers are not always the best option. I'd like to see Kino penetrate and drop dimes for dunks, but P. Martin will touch the ball too much, R. Martin will shoot too many threes, and Westbrooks needs to bang inside

[fpc85]

I am driving up to the 'herst tomorrow. I am sure the Jeffs will be prepared and ready to begin their run in the tourney. Go Jeffs!

[shea]

I don't think people should be pointing to Hamilton's narrow escape against Plattsburgh as evidence that the Conts will struggle against Amherst.  If they had won by 18, would people be saying, "Watch out Amherst, here come the Continentals"?  I think that Hamilton will have a tough time with Amherst as well, but not because of the result of that one game vs Plattsburgh.  Predicting results based on one game, we would read too much into the following:

Amherst losing to Trinity (18-6)
Trinity losing to Elizabethtown (15-10)
Elizabethtown losing to Susquehanna (10-15)

My money would still be on Amherst if they took on Susquehanna.  Incidentally, Susquehanna lost to Messiah and Messiah lost to Hamilton.  What does it mean?  Nothing at all.

I was at the game when Georgetown beat Duke this year.  Before the game someone asked me if the Hoyas were going to win.  I said, "No, but that's why they play the game".  The Jeffs have a lot of tools, but it would be costly to look past anyone when so much is on the line.  The Conts are underdogs playing a great team on the road - they don't have anything to lose.  I hope it's a great game!