MBB: NESCAC

formerbant10 · March 20, 2006, 12:07:28 AM

Congrats to Bedford for making D3hoops' 3rd Team All-America.

Questionable omission of Tyler Rhoten. Guess that happens when your team doesn't get into the tourney.

Oh well.

Pat Coleman · March 20, 2006, 12:48:01 AM

Too many good forwards. Who would I have taken off?

Note that Randolph-Macon's Justin Wansley, a two-time D3hoops.com All-American, did not make this year's team either. That's a testament to the strength of the forward class.

ephoops · March 20, 2006, 01:32:08 AM

Formerbant:

I played against Dan Trant and the great Clark team in '83-84. When Williams beat the '83-'84 Clark team, it was probably the biggest win of our season (including a 4-0 record in the Little Three). '83-84 was Harry Sheehy's first year as coach of the Ephs. I'm sure if you asked him he would say that the win over Clark was his first "big" victory of an illustrious coaching career.

It was tragic that Dan Trant's life was cut short in the WTC on 9/11. He worked with some friends of my wife and me at Cantor Fitzgerald. He was a great player and a classy, stand up guy.

ephoops · March 20, 2006, 01:51:54 AM

Pat Coleman and/or Pat Cummings:

I'd like your views on the officiating and the amount of physical play in the AMH / Witt semi final. I've seen a number of posts (many from Amherst fans but some from apparently non-Amherst fans) that the game was too physical/rough and that the refs did a poor job of controling the game. In the end, many posters believe that the physical game was to the detriment of AMH. In addition, I understand that Hixon made some comments in the post-game press conference complaining about the how physical the game was and how it hurt AMH.

Your thoughts?

?

formerbant10 · March 20, 2006, 10:43:38 AM

Pat,

I agree that there were plenty of good forwards, but Rhoten did outplay Fitzgerald. It's too bad they didn't face each other in Villa Julie's tourney. But it seems like all the guys selected deserved it. I also thought Bedford should've been ahead of McGarvey, but my opinion doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

Eph,

I don't doubt that Coach Sheehy would count that as his first big win, unless you played Amherst before you played Clark that year.

And your right about the tragic end to Trant's life. I was hoping to see him a few times that winter, his niece enrolled at Trinity and the word was that he planned to make it to a few games.

Pat Coleman · March 20, 2006, 11:24:51 AM

Quote from: ephoops on March 20, 2006, 01:51:54 AM
Pat Coleman and/or Pat Cummings:

I'd like your views on the officiating and the amount of physical play in the AMH / Witt semi final. I've seen a number of posts (many from Amherst fans but some from apparently non-Amherst fans) that the game was too physical/rough and that the refs did a poor job of controling the game. In the end, many posters believe that the physical game was to the detriment of AMH. In addition, I understand that Hixon made some comments in the post-game press conference complaining about the how physical the game was and how it hurt AMH.

Your thoughts??

It was obvious that Amherst wasn't accustomed to that type of game, but I'll be honest, I wasn't surprised by it. Amherst started getting back into the game when it started playing a little more physically itself. (Oh yeah, and hit all those threes!)

Was it too physical? Was it out of control? Not in my opinion. Contrast in styles, to be sure.

Pat Coleman · March 20, 2006, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: formerbant10 on March 20, 2006, 10:43:38 AM
I agree that there were plenty of good forwards, but Rhoten did outplay Fitzgerald. It's too bad they didn't face each other in Villa Julie's tourney. But it seems like all the guys selected deserved it. I also thought Bedford should've been ahead of McGarvey, but my opinion doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

I saw both Bedford and McGarvey and disagreed, obviously.

It was a tough call down at the bottom of the forwards. I felt that since there have been only two players in D-III history with 2100 career points and 1400 rebounds (finished wtih 1497) that Fitzgerald needed to be on the team.

Knightstalker · March 20, 2006, 12:58:50 PM

Quote from: d3basketball34 on March 18, 2006, 12:15:34 AM
While it was a terribly played game by Amherst I must admit that the officiating was the worst I've seen in 20+ years. By "letting them play" plays right into the hands of a team that is physical and fouls a lot. Talking to some of the players and watching the game I realized how poorly the refs saw the game. A player doesn't miss a layup by 5 feet (Goldsmith) unless he is fouled. Amherst had 9 fouls on Witt w/ 8 + minutes left but couldn't get a foul committed by Witt until therre was one minute left! Bull Durham I say! The refs wanted to balance out the game so they let it play rough until Witt was back in the game and then they called some incredible fouls on Amherst!!!! I couldn't belive what I saw tonight! John Bedford went up for a rebound and I saw two Witt players grab each arm! When Bedford broke free and grabbed the rebound HE was called for a foul! The refs were the worst I have ever seen in over 20+ years of basketball! If basketball has come down to a clutch and grab type of game (a la hockey) then I'm done watching this sport!

Amherst was definately the better team and it's too bad that refs blew it!

Amherst had done to them what they did to NJCU in the Sweet Sixteen two years ago at F&M.

As far as playing the game the way it was intended? Basketball like all other sports is an evolving thing. I have seen game films from the pre-shot clock era. I have seen game films of people like George Mikan play and one thing I noticed is that the play was pretty physical. Personally I like a defensive minded physical game such as some of the old Big East games between teams like Georgetown and St. Johns and some others. I liked the Nasty Boy Pistons and the Riley Knicks. I grew up in NJ and I have seen physical basketball since I was a little kid and first started paying attention in the late sixties and early seventies.

Amherst95 · March 20, 2006, 01:25:08 PM

Thinking about the end of the season . . .

It's so tough to see a great season end like that. What makes it even tougher is realizing how limited the odds of winning that title are. Witt is in contention every year, but the upcoming season will be the thirtieth since their last championship. Hope's men are always there; they've got zero titles. Williams did everything right for two seasons, winning their title by half an inch and losing out on another by half an inch. What one comes to accept as a D3 fan is that no matter how good your school's team is, they won't win it all unless they get just a little bit blessed. After the (third) Tufts game this year I thought we had our blessing. But tomorrow crept in, again.

It must be devastating for the players, having been so close only to see it slip away again. No amount of "Keep your chin up" etc. can salve that wound.

But time will, eventually. They had the greatest season our college has ever seen; for the seniors, they had three (if not four) of the top five. They are as good as any team in the country, and these experiences make stronger people, win or lose. Of course that's one of the great sports cliches, but like the others it carries an essential kernel of truth.

They did their school proud, and those of us who take pride in our school won't ever forget it.

fpc85 · March 20, 2006, 01:54:45 PM

AMH95,
I couldn't have said it any better. It is very tough to get the final four (only 1% d3 teams make it every year). It will be extremely difficult to have a return visit.

I was at the final four and the offiiciating wasn't what we would have liked it to be....BUT it isn't unusual for the officials to let them play in a big game like that and it appeared Wittenberg was more comfortable with how the game was officiated.

Finally, thank you seniors for leading this team....the younger guys love you and more importantly respect you all as people and standard you have set for the program....your achievements as a class is now the benchmark at Amherst. We certainly hope the returning players can continue the strong tradition at Amherst college.

formerbant10 · March 20, 2006, 02:13:13 PM

Pat,

So Rhoten gets nothing for scoring 2200 points. I don't get how Rhoten is 1st team All Region and Bedford was not, yet Bedford gets the nod over Rhoten for All American. Also interesting that a two time finalist for the Josten's Trophy doesn't see at least honorable mention. This was Rhoten's best year as a total player. I wish you would've seen him play.

As for the Bedford/McGarvey debate. I've played against both on more than one occasion and there is no question that Bedford is better. It's not even close.

Pat Coleman · March 20, 2006, 02:51:26 PM

All-Region is determined by the SIDs.
All-American is determined by us.

Also, they play different positions. They were never in competition with each other.

walzy31 · March 20, 2006, 04:58:15 PM

Gotta side with formerbant on this,

I understand that the all region is SID's and all america is the d3hoops crew, but the all america selections look very VERY bias because of team success.

The argument I have made all season for Bedford is that his team successes should not affect his position of awards teams. The same should be said for Ty Rhoten.

NESCAC put them both on first team and finishing 1-2 overall. NABC has them both first team all region. NABC has Bedford 3rd team AA and Rhoten 1st team AA. D3 hoops had Rhoten first team all northeast and bedford 2nd. Then it has Bedford 3rd team AA but Rhoten omitted.

How does someone get 1st team All American from the coaches and then the d3hoops.com committee not honor them for anything? Bias?
Why's eveyone hatin' on NESCAC? We've sent 4 teams to the final four over the past 4 years.

Congrats on the 2nd place finish in the men's tourny. What was your final 4?

mrmike88 · March 20, 2006, 05:09:49 PM

Yes, it was a very physical game. During the game, though, I didn't think the officiating was poor. I thought they did a good job letting the players play, and they called fouls when there were obvious fouls. Personally, I think it was just a difference in styles. Amherst hadn't seen a team like Witt that played that physically all season. Would Northeast refs have called more fouls? Perhaps, but we don't know. Did the physical play take the Jeffs out of it at first? Sure, but you can't blame that on poor officiating.

formerbant10 · March 20, 2006, 05:16:20 PM

Walzy,

Thanks for all that info. It boggles my mind about Rhoten, and I've received some calls about it from other people as well. But that's life.

As for my bracket (which I did much better than my D1 is doing) I had 3 of the Final Four correct. I didn't have Ill. Wes, but I had Va. Wes beating Witt in the finals. I wonder if it came down to the tie breaker, I was a little high on my prediction.

Pat,

I know Bedford and Rhoten play different positions, but if you'd like to be technical about it Rhoten was Trinity's center this year. You could have put him in any of those spots as well and there would've been no argument against it.

Bedford and McGarvey were in competition with each other, and I disagree with where they ended up as well. I know I have a NE bias, but to me leaving a 2 Time Josten's Trophy Finalist off any of the 10 spots designated for Forwards is wrong.

Again, I'm sure it would've helped if they had a better season, but All American teams are for personal achievements and there are very few players who deserve the credit that Rhoten does....in any region.