MBB: NESCAC

[JeffRookie2]

I dont think it's a given that ray/stockwell is the premier guard/forward combo in the league. What about shepard/weitzen or olson/wheeler? I dont think I'm as high on bates as a lot of other people on this board. I think Tufts will be a better team than Bates, and may even be the best team in the conference.

[thunder32]

Oh I totally agree with you I was just trying to get off the subject of Amherst.  I think that Weitzen and shepard are two of the top players in the conference next year.  Shepard really runs that team like a general on the court and Weitzen is just about imposible to stop becuase of all the moves he has and his ability to use his weight.  Tufts will be a fun team to watch next year they should still be putting up 80 pts per game.  I think that the experience in the NCAAs will help them alot too. 

But the thing about Bates is that they are very tough to beat at home becuase of the size of their gym.  That is a tough ride for many of the NESCAC schools to make and then to have to play in that sweat box they call a gym, its a nice home court advantage.  I havent looked at the schedule to see who they are playing home, but its always a battle up there.

[JeffRookie2]

i would actually love to hear from some of the williams fans as to what their outlook in terms of the starting lineup and rotation is for the next season.

[toad22]

I have followed Amherst's Exeter PG recruit DJ Carcieri for a couple of years. He is a winner. He can disrupt an offense better than anyone I have seen since Jim Frew and John Botti in the 90's at Williams.  He doesn't shoot as well as he defends, but I would hate to have to play against him. He is very fast and fearless.   Due to Amherst's depth of talent I doubt he will get much time this year, but I doubt he can be kept out of the lineup for very long. I wish Williams had him. He could help the Ephs immediately.

[ballaholic4]

I do think Weitzen and Shepard are good players, as is the case with Olsen and Wheeler; but you've got to understand something about Stockwell and Ray- they've been the go to players on their team for two years.  Experience is something you can't teach, and tufts had Stovell and Martin the last two years, while amherst had a slew of all-league players.  All intagibles aside and speaking from experience, Stockwell and Ray are the hardest to match up against anyway.  Stockwell's like 6'6 230 and quick, not to mention he loves firing the three ball  (a little too much last year maybe) nonetheless, he's a real threat out there.  Add in his 9+ rpgs and you've got a rare commodity in the NESCAC.  Ray is better than Olsen, there I said it.  Not only has he proven it as the TRUE leader of a team for 2 years, he is the focal point of other teams defenses when it comes to the perimeter.  Olsen might be a better traditional floor general than Ray, but he sure as hell isn't a better defender and he's not quicker.  Not to mention, he usually gets the 5th best defender on the other team, while ray draws the peskiest perimeter defender.  Another thing about olsen is that Hixon will never put him in the position ray is at bates, he will always be a "system" point guard.  Hixon's worried more about his pgs getting other guys shots, so its never gonna come down to a 1 on 1 isolation at the end of a game where Olson has the ball or he's running a pick and roll with wheeler, that's just not their style.  Stockwell and Ray, on the other hand, have been known to "Stockton and Malone" it here and there, making them more of a "combo" in the traditional sense. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong by the end of the year, but I have a feeling that Amherst and Tufts are going 2 be deeper than Bates, so the arguement might not really even be relevant...
All of this is not to take anything away from the other teams' (tufts, amherst) guard/forward combos, but to say that any team has a better guard/forward combo in the league, at this point, is ridiculous. 

[thunder32]

It will be interesting to see if any guards are able to step up on Colby and become major condtributiors with Cohen as their big.  Because that would make them a legit contendor.  But when it comes to experience I think Tufts has the edge with all but one player coming back and making it to the seet sixteen.  Also when you talk about players given free reign Offensively, you think of Jake Weitzen, who also plays that pick and roll at the top of the key with shepard really well, but jake was givven the ball alot of times at the end of games and in crunch time and asked to produce.  Granted they will miss the big presence but they have game time players that know how to win and what it takes to win.  Bates tufts is always a good match up and it should be a fun one to watch again this year. 

[JeffRookie2]

Firstly, its olson, not olsen, but nobody ever gets that right, so i forgive you. I also grudgingly will let the arguement pass that Ray is better than Olson, even though I dont agree. To me, Ray is an Iverson-esque player, capable of completely taking over a game when he wants to, but who also often tries to do too much. Meanwhile Olson is more like a Jason Terry or Tony Parker, guys who aren't the best on their teams, but know when to contribute scoring and when to defer. Many would say Iverson is better than Terry or Parker, and he is certainly more gifted, but I prefer Terry/Parker. Nonetheless, saying that Ray is better than Olson is a fair claim.

The reason I think Wheeler/Olson is better than Ray/Stockwell however, is because Wheeler is head and shoulders ahead of Stockwell. He is a better scorer than Stockwell (both in the post, and from the perimeter), and while Stockwell may average more rebounds per game, I feel Wheeler is at least as good a rebounder on a better rebounding team. (Amherst led the conference in rebounding, but no individual put up awe-inspiring numbers on the boards). I also think Wheeler is stronger and a better defender.

I know I'm biased, and Wheeler and Olson certianly have played with some amazing talent around them, so maybe this season when they will be expected to lead the team will be a better indicator.

And just for the record, that performance Ray put on in the conference tourny last year was nuts, one of the best i've seen in the two years ive followed the nescac. that being said, two weeks before that he was atrocious. a little more consistency and i'll be his biggest supporter, i promise.

[nescachoopsfan]

jeffrookie,

i agree with your comparison of olson and ray, but it makes you wonder if ray had the team around him that olson has, could he be more of a distributor and less a scorer?  but since there is no way to ever see that, i will let that argument go.  on the other hand i think your comments about stockwell are kind of ridiculous.  he is in my opinion the best scorer on the block in the league and wheeler is good but i wouldnt call him a force on the block.  he can definetly play there, but my main concern with him is his shooting.  i think he is a much better shooter than post player.  stockwell is a force on the block and on the boards.  what else do you want from a powerforward?  stockwell faces many more double teams and attention on the block than wheeler, and i think the biggest advantage amherts has is that their players basically get to go 1 on 1 all game.  as soon as you help someone is raining a 3.  that is not a backhanded compliment its just a fact.  i know a lot of players that would put up better numbers if they had 4 deadly shooters on the floor with them.  from what ive seen (which is not much outside of cousens gym) stockwell is the better big man

[thunder32]

I am going to have to agree with nescachoopsfan on this one becuase Stockwell gets the best post defender to guard him ever game with doubles coming ever time he touches the ball.  With Wheeler he usually did not merit the best post defender on the other team and would never see a double becuse all of the shooters on the perimiter.  Wheeler would most of the time have a smaller forward guarding him becuase of the hight that Amherst had.

Now when opposing teams scout amherst Wheeler is the biggest matchup problem because he can take the big men outside and the guards in the post.  But this does not mean that he is better than Stockwell.  Wheeler would usually get the third or forth best defender on the team.  Dont get me wrong I think Wheeler is a great player but Stockwell is better. 

Now with the Ray, Olson debate.  I would not call Olson a Jason Terry style point guard.  I think that Terry takes way to many shots and does not see the floor well.  Now Olson is an ideal point guard almost like a Steve nash - I think that is a better comparison with his ability to see the floor and make the players around him better.  Now ray I like as a scoring point guard I thought the iverson comparision was right on the money.  It would be interesting to see how Ray would fit into amherst's style of play and how Olson fits into Bates style of play but since that would be purely speculation I wont even try.  Never the less they are both two of the top three point guards in the leauge.  With Shepard from Tufts also up there. 

I dont know exactly what position Wheeler plays but I think that Brian Kumf for Tufts next year will be a monster and probably one of the best small forwards in the league.  I expect him to build on the preformance he put together against amherst in Tufts final game.

[nescachoopsfan]

i agree, kumf is a definete monster, and much more athletic than most of the nescac.  if you were there when he threw down an and 1, 2 handed dunk on wesleyan, or the throw down on 2 williams players, u know what i mean.  i think thunder knows the capabilities of his former teamate, and can give a pretty accurate account of his talent

[thunder32]

Yeah Kumf is one of the most athletic kids in the league

[formerbant10]

He's got some pretty serious competition at SF for most athletic. 

Don't forget about Coulibaly, one of the best athletes around.  Trinity has 3 very athletic SF's in Paul Rowe, Aaron Westbrooks and Robert Taylor III.

As for beasts down low....I don't see anyone stopping Drew "Treyball" Cohen.  Stockwell and Wheeler are both very good players, but they don't draw nearly as much attention from the opposition as Cohen does.  There isn't a better rebounder in the league, nor a better shot blocker in all the land.  Any conversations about post players should start with Cohen this year.

As for the Ray/Olson saga....how bout both of them in the backcourt together.  I'm sure Iverson wouldn't mind being spoon fed bucket after bucket from Nash.  And Ray is a tough enough defender to guard most of the 2's he'll play against this year.

[thunder32]

I dont think that anyone disagrees that Cohen is the best center in the league but what I was talking about is the guard forward combos of Stockwell/Ray Weitzen/Shepard and Wheeler/Olson.  I think that I said before that if Colby could get a guard to step up and put up some big numbers that they would be a contender for a home playoff game but as they stand now they dont look so good except for that one player.

[formerbant10]

Colby will see the return of Michael Westbrooks which will help them out quite a bit.

Of those 3 combos....the Bates crew have the most league recognition and are very good, Ray is a clutch player who can carry his team when needed.  Shepard was probably the most underrated player last year, maybe 2nd to Weitzen who continues to be the toughest matchup on the court, but Wheeler and Olson have more big game experience than the other 2 combined.  It's no wonder why all 3 of their teams are at or near the top of the conference. 

In last year's Trin/Tufts regular season game, Weitzen was the difference.  He came right off the bench and nailed a 3, then when it was crunch time he had the ball in his hands.  He was able to get by his man, force the help to come which made it possible for the put backs.  I don't know if he'll get such a favorable matchup against the Bants this year though, they have a few players who should (Taylor III and Westbrooks in particular) be able to slow him down a little more than last year.  But the game is in Medford, so the early advantage is with the Jumbos on that one.

[JeffRookie2]

So, what will the starting lineup for Williams look like? I assume, Rose, Shalvoy, Weisbrot, Kuntz, but who is the fifth?