MBB: NESCAC

[nescac1]

Marty, there are lots of reasons a basketball recruit would choose Williams over Amherst.  Amherst (while a much bigger town than Williamstown) is hardly "urban" so if that is a primary consideration, the recruit would likely choose neither.   Williams can offer a bigger, nicer basketball gym, higher average attendance (particularly from townies, who are huge supporters of the Williams team -- one advantage of a relatively isolated area. as in winter Williams hoops is one of the few options for sports fans) and a school that is in session in January, whereas Amherst has to play to an empty gym during that month.   Until two years ago, Williams also had a more succesful program overall ... and of course had the national championship banner and the four final four appearances.   Moreover, Williams students, on the average, are bigger sports fan / more athletically inclined than Amherst students.  In any event, I don't think the types of athletes who go to Williams or Amherst are, for the most part, "urban."  Look at the football recruiting -- Williams generally does marginally better than Amherst on that front, and I don't see the athlete pool as any different from the basketball athlete pool -- mostly suburban / prep school kids, with a few exceptions here and there.  Success begets success, so Amherst's recent run will certainly help with recruiting, but outside of the idiosyncracies of meshing with coaches and players, I would think Williams would be a more appealing enviorment, overall, for athletic recruits.   I am just guessing here, but I imagine the huge turnover in assistant coaching Williams has undergone in the last three years may have impacted upon Williams' recruiting -- the school has lost several assistants (many who went on to Division I assistant coaching or Division III head coaching stints) almost every year since 2002.  The assistants do a ton of the work recruiting, and it must be hard to maintain contact with recruits when there is such a revolving door.  Williams has certainly managed to attract some of the most talented players in the NESCAC over the years -- of course Nogelo was the best ever to play in the conference, with Crotty, Coffin, Kain, Newton, Rose all guys that I'm sure any NESCAC coach would have been glad to have.  I don't see any reason why those types of guys won't choose Williams again in the future ...

[Baller10]

The academic prestige of Amherst and Williams is basically a toss-up. As is the prominence of their basketball past. Up until recently Williams probably had a stronger basketball tradition. Fine. Nescac1 said himself that Amherst is now able to get better recruits because of all the recent success. But why wasnt Williams able to have the same sort of recruiting success following their 2 championship game appearances? Possibly, the turnover of asst coaches, but really that is minimal. 

The real difference between the two programs is the type of people who play at the two schools. DeMuth, Coffin, Crotty, and Abba had to be four of the biggest jerks and/or losers ever to suit up in the nescac. How can you expect players who visit both schools to honestly choose to have those types of kids be there teammates and friends. Marty Peretz brought this issue up earlier. The character of those kids is what killed their recruiting. If you talk to kids around the nescac about why they did not choose williams its because their team is year after year a bunch of stiffs. I look at the more recent kids....where do they find these mutants?

[nescac hoops]

marty,

st. louis is the biggest $hithole i have ever been to.

the nescac/uaa is a toss-up....it is sort of a quality vs. quanity arguement. are 2 teams that are ranked #2 and #16 better than 3 teams ranked in #15 -25 slots?

i think most kids, if given the option, would go to an amherst/williams before MOST uaa schools. while this is a bball forum, williams has been the #1 d3 sports school as determined by the sears cup for the last 9 of 10 years. just b/c the men's bball team doesn't reflect strong recruits, other sports at the school have had their pick of kids....and it shows.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't know if that's really true. It's kind of apples and oranges between UAA and NESCAC schools. Do you want to go to a research institution in a large city or (mostly) a liberal arts college in a smaller area?

[Titan Q]

marty,

st. louis is the biggest $hithole i have ever been to.

You must have been on the wrong side of town or something.  Wash U is in an absolutely beautiful area of St. Louis (Forest Park).  The campus is just 15 minutes from downtown St. Louis, which is where Busch Stadium, the Savvis Center, and the Edward Jones Dome are.  In the other direction, Clayton - a very nice suburb - is just 5 minutes away.  Wash U's campus is also just 10 minutes from the famous "Hill" neighborhood, full of some of the best restaurants I've ever been to.

This Chicago native - who now lives about halfway between the Windy City and St. Louis (in Bloomington, IL) - absolutely loves the Gateway City.  My alma mater, Illinois Wesleyan, regularly goes head-to-head with Wash U for high school seniors and the city of St. Louis is certainly a big recruiting advantage for Mark Edward's program.

[nescac hoops]

perhaps there are nicer parts, but the part i was in was pretty miserable. however, i don't think the city of st. louis is what illinois wesleyan competes against for recruits. it's a little thing called academic reputation that is the wash u advantage...

[Titan Q]

perhaps there are nicer parts, but the part i was in was pretty miserable. however, i don't think the city of st. louis is what illinois wesleyan competes against for recruits. it's a little thing called academic reputation that is the wash u advantage...

Wash U is an outstanding school with a tremendous academic reputation, but Illinois Wesleyan is a very highly regarded - and very selective - academic institution as well.  Granted, much more of a "regional" institution.  However, IWU's main competition for recruits is the Patriot League, Ivy League, and D3's like U. of Chicago, Wash U., and Lawrence.  For example, IWU's two 1st Team All-Americans last year (Adam Dauksas and Keelan Amelianovich) were both recruited very hard by U. of Chicago and Colgate -- if national academic reputation meant everything, those two would have been Maroons or (whatever the heck Colgate's nickname is!).  Several of IWU's top recruits this year are down to Illinois Wesleyan, Dartmouth, and Brown (Dartmouth and Brown recruit the heck out of the Chicago area, by the way).  IWU's 2000 Josten's winner Korey Coon chose IWU over Wash U largely for academic reasons -- IWU was a better fit for him.  In certain undergraduate fields for certain kids, IWU can stack of very favorably vs those prestigious schools.

Comparing an IWU or Lawrence to Wash U or Chicago is an apples and oranges thing, really.  Just very different types of schools. 

[Jonny Utah]

Id hate to but in here but......

Wouldnt ya say that Amherst has better looking women than Williams?  Having a good time on a recuriting visit is pretty important. In fact, if I were to rank NESCAC women.....

1-Trinity
2-Middlebury
3-Colby
4-Amherst
5-Bowdoin
6-Bates
7-Weslyan
8-Tufts
9-Williams

(dont know about Conn College)

[thunder32]

I think that you may have ranked colby and Bowdoin a little high but that is pretty much right on

[Jonny Utah]

Yea, you could have dropped Bowdoin and upped Wes a little.

[eclinchy]

As a Tufts student, I am shocked not to see TU in dead last.

You were close though.

[formerbant10]

There may be a reason why Trinity fans love the "Ugly Girls" chant.

Lotta nonsense talk between NESCAC/UAA.  Both conferences are great, both have some very talented teams and players. 

Amherst beat Brandeis this year.  U of R took out Amherst in the NCAA's a couple years back, and Williams a couple years before that. 

And Hartford really isn't that bad.  Nice downtown area to go out, great places to eat and a beautiful campus.  Let's not badmouth the Hart Beat.

[feces monkey]

The NESCAC and UAA are indeed apples and oranges. Illinois Wesleyan would be comparable to a glazed donut in this discussion.

Trinity's reputation is well earned, although I've been impressed with CC ladies. Colby's ranking is dubious.

Isn't there a barbed-wire fence encircling the Trinity campus?

[formerbant10]

2 Rows of Barb-Wire.  Don't forget about the armed guards on each corner and the canine patrol.

[The Historian]

Wow.  Scintillating conversation.  I thought--with no games to discuss--everyone would be at home playing with their new toys and enjoying family and friends.  Apparently not...

However, it does appear that--basketball accomplishments aside--the UAA has a much bigger inferiority complex than does NESCAC.  My colleague Pat Taverna, Professor of Freudian Psychology, has a few theories on that...

As for character issues, I can't speak broadly, but Crotty did stay with me and my roommates on his recruiting trip to Amherst.  He was very civil and very quiet, choosing to stay in and study rather than go out and socialize with the team.  In fact, the only semi-strange thing I noticed about his visit was the cute little elf suit he had packed in his bag.  He mentioned something about a song-and-dance routine, but I didn't press him.

Re: the conspiracy theory, I'm guilty as charged.  As for what I have to gain by Amherst's possible demise, you'll have to wait and see.

With respect to the turnover in assistant coaches, I think this is potentially a very important and often overlooked point.  And Amherst has had its own share of turnover.  Other than Ron Buelow, the other assistants have changed from year to year.  In fact, one of the things I'm most concerned about this year with regard to Amherst's success is the loss of Luke Flockerzi.  He was a recruiting genius and a brilliant game manager.  Players respected and related to him with fierce loyalty.  It's worth noting that in the last three years, Amherst only missed the Final Four in the year Luke was not on the sideline.  Some school is going to get very lucky when they land him as a head coach.

Finally, formerbant10, thanks for the messages.  I'll add those numbers to my records.  I'd message you back, but as a jv'er I can't.

As for basketball, I'm curious to see the results from this coming weekend.  I'm also predicting a big Amherst win on January 6.  Not only do I think they quite clearly have the better team, I also like that the Jeffs have a solid warm-up game against a good Babson team (5-3, with two 3-point losses to Colby and Trinity, as well as a 10-point loss to then-undefeated Brandeis) on the 4th whereas Williams won't have played since their California trip.  Good scheduling on Hixon's part.

School is cool.