MBB: NESCAC

[Bball3 Fan]

I noticed that Williams lost to Occidental today 65-78 in California. I expected the NESCAC team to hold up to the west coast team better than that. Where is Williams expected to finish in the NESCAC?

[JeffRookie2]

Bottom half, if not bottom quarter. That being said, Amherst lost out there to Occidental last year.

[Howlinwolf]

The Ephs shot extraordinarily well in half one, and actually led for much of it before falling behind by two at the buzzer. Oxy's overall talent took over soon after the second half began, with the Tigers leading by 12-18 points for the final 17 minutes. Occidental was too physical for the Purple Cows. And, yes, they took care of Amherst on their home court last January. (Today's win was part of the Cal Tech Tourney in Pasadena.)

[eclinchy]

Is the #1 ranking even debatable at this point?  'Herst not being on top just doesn't make sense anymore.  Congrats Jeffs.

[Pat Coleman]

There's been a fair amount of discussion about this in the multi-regional boards, where there's a topic devoted to the Top 25 poll.

Here are some enlightening numbers:

Team A: Record of opponents played to date: 35-40, .466
Team B: Record of opponents played to date: 70-32, .686
Team C: Record of opponents played to date: 65-49, .570

That's all the games the opponents have played against teams other than the one we're ranking (you can add nine or ten losses and one or zero wins if you like).

Or this list:
Record of D-III opponents played to date: 35-40, .466
Record of D-III opponents played to date: 63-26, .707
Record of D-III opponents played to date: 54-27, .667

A is Amherst. B is Ohio Northern. C is UW-Stevens Point.

[Friar T]

Yup Amherst's schedule has not been up to par as of yet, however I'd like to throw average margin of victory on there. I'd also like to think that these other two schools have more opportunity to play better teams (NE is fairly weak).

Two big games in the NESCAC tonight. Colby becomes the sixth team in the conference to play Springfield, while Bowdoin matches up with a Plymouth St. team that lost by 10 at Tufts. Not always the best measuring stick, but interesting to see what happens... Predictions?

WAR #1 Jeffs
WAR Andrew Olson for Bob Cousy PG of the Year
WAR Jan. 6

[nescac hoops]

ill take colby against springfield, though i think it will be a relatively close game. springfield is a tough place to play and it's a long trip for the mules.
as for bowdoin/plymouth st....tufts has been so inconsistent that they are hard to use as a measuring stick for any opponents but ill take plymouth st.

ill also take amherst as #1 in the country. not sure when the rankings come out today. let them stay at #1 until they prove they are not worthy of the spot. if they are still undefeated after the bates/tufts weekend then they are truly deserving of the #1 ranking.

[The Historian]

Pat,

To paraphrase a great intellectual, it seems to me that you are "just spinning, bobbing and weaving" trying to find arguments against Amherst.  All a team can do is go out and win the games on its schedule.  To that end, Amherst has done its job better than any other team in the nation other than Wooster in the 2000s.  Granted, as has been well documented, for teams in NE, this means playing (and beating) more less-competitive teams than teams in other regions must.

Perhaps that should invalidate Amherst (or any team from NE) from holding the top spot unless they actually win the title.  If you want to make that argument, fine.  There's certainly a precedent for it.  Take D1 football, for example.  Boise State at 12-0 is not in the national title game.  In both season-ending polls, they were ranked 9th, lower than seven other teams with more losses than they had.  But outside of some folks in Idaho, few people, I'm sure, truly believe that Boise State got jobbed this year.  Their conference, schedule, etc isn't as tough as those in the major conferences.  Good.  Great.  I get it.  I even agree with it.

Personally, of course, I think Amherst is different.  I think over the last few years they (and the top NE schools, in general, have proven their merit on the national stage.  While the region as a whole may be weaker than some, the top few teams out of NE can run with any of the other national powers.

But I'm open to those who disagree with this.  However, to them I would ask what the ceiling should be for NE schools in the national polls during the regular season.  If I understand the arguments against Amherst this year, it seems to me that many people simply do not think a NE team should ever be a mid-season number one, given the region's weakness.  If that's the case, then what is the highest an undefeated NE team should be ranked in the national polls?  Pat, what do you say?  You love numbers, so give me some numbers.  In the depths of your "enlightened" mind, how good do you really think the top NE teams are year in and year out?  Was Williams an aberration a few years ago, winning a title and setting the national record for consecutive wins?  Has Amherst been an aberration the last few years?  What about Conn College in the late 90s?  It must have really set your teeth on edge when Amherst and Williams both made the Final Four three years ago.  How could such an inferior region contribute fully half of the Salem contingent?

Frankly this year, as an Amherst fan, I don't care all that much about the number one ranking.  Sure, it's fun to point to and brag about.  But honestly I'd be content with a top 4 national ranking and a number 1 regional ranking that would give the Jeffs homecourt through the sectional finals (assuming that they continue their winning ways).

Basically, I'd just love to hear some direct, honest opinions from all those who continue to disparage the NE region.  Don't keep taking pot-shots at Amherst or other top NE teams.  They are doing all that you can ask of them.  If that's not enough in your minds for a number one national ranking, okay, but what is it good enough for in your "enlightened" opinions?

Don't hate the students; hate the classes they take.

[Pat Coleman]

I suppose we should punish a team with a better resume simply because Amherst has played a poor schedule, then.

I have no problem with Northeast teams in general getting any particular ranking they may earn. But the numbers in this particular instance speak volumes. This is not a referendum on a decade of Northeast basketball -- I'm pretty sure we're voting on the 2006-07 Division III basketball season through games of Dec. 31.

[thunder32]

Pat,

Amherst's schedule has been a point of emphasis on this board.  But I would love to see them as the number one team in the nation but that is only becuase I want to see Tufts nock them off on the 12th.  I agree with you that they should not knock teams for playing a harder schedule but that is becuase when I played for Tufts we always played a harder schedule than just about anyone in the NE.  I think that maybe you should hold off the rankings until the weekend after the 12th so you can be sure that Amherst deserves the spot but that is not posible.  Either way we will know alot more about this Amherst team after the weekend of the 12th than we know now.

[BooBallsCasRay]

Pat Coleman,

As a self-proclaimed D3 GURU, I would think you at least know a LITTLE about Northeast basketball.  After seeing Wayback Wheeler drop threes like TO drops passes and adolphe coulastheothersideofthepillowibaly droppin more slammers than a POGS fanatic (e.g. scott bronner), there is no doubt that Amherst is by far the best team in the nation this year (although UCLA does look solid).

Nice karma

[blacklordjeff]

Just wanted to add to the Historian's point that Boise State beat the MIGHTY Oklahoma Sooners in one of the best Fiesta Bowls to date.  We can compare strength of schedule all we want, but I love that we get to decide it on the court.  Because to be honest, the DIII rankings can't hold much weight because most teams (save the UAA conference) don't travel all that much.  Who knows how good a team in the Midwest is in comparison to a New England team?  Its really an educated guess, and because of that, its hard to debate against a team that is undefeated and has destroyed its opponents.  But again, I'd like to see Amherst at number one on that rankings board that doesn't change all summer...

[Pat Coleman]

Pat Coleman,

As a self-proclaimed D3 GURU, I would think you at least know a LITTLE about Northeast basketball.  After seeing Wayback Wheeler drop threes like TO drops passes and adolphe coulastheothersideofthepillowibaly droppin more slammers than a POGS fanatic (e.g. scott bronner), there is no doubt that Amherst is by far the best team in the nation this year (although UCLA does look solid).

Nice karma

Uh huh. How many non-Amherst games have you seen?

Seriously, though, there are a lot of good teams out there. Amherst is certainly one of them. They're not going to be No. 1 on my personal ballot but I'm only one of the 25 voters.

[Titan Q]

As a D3hoops.com Top voter, my job is to evaluate and rank teams.  In theory, the team I rank #1 should be a tad better on a neutral court than #2, etc..  In Division III, this is a pretty tough task because, unlike my polling courterparts in Division I, I cannot watch Rochester or Wittenberg or Puget Sound on ESPN.  Fortunately, I get to see a lot of great teams play every year, but for those I cannot see in person, all I have to help me do my job are scores.  As I evaluate scores and records, I put a ton of emphasis on strength of schedule.  A win over a bad team, even by a huge margin, doesn't mean much to me.

For the ballot I submitted today, I had three teams in consideration for the #1 spot - Amherst, Ohio Northern, and UW-Stevens Point.  Again, having seen none of them, I'm left to look at scores only.  Things I considered:

* ONU (10-1) has wins over #6 Wittenberg and #1 Wooster.  Wooster is one of the toughest places in Division III to win a game.  ONU also defeated a good UW-La Crosse team.

*  UW-Stevens Point (10-1) has wins @ #14 Lawrence and vs #9 Augustana, in addition to wins over WIAC contenders UW-Oshkosh and UW-Whitewater.  Lawrence is one of the best teams in one of the best regions and their gym, like Wooster's, is an extremely hard place to win.

* Amherst (9-0) has a home win over "receiving votes" Brandeis, which I believe to be a good team from a good league.


So as I try to determine who is better than who, right now I feel the most comfortable with Ohio Northern, followed closely by UW-Stevens Point.  My ballot today has ONU #1, UW-SP #2, and Amherst #3.  My best guess - and it really is just a guess - is that in neutral court games, both Ohio Northern and Stevens Point would edge Amherst.

I believe Amherst to be one of the best teams in the country -- I saw them play as recently as 9 months ago in Salem.  It's just that right now, I think ONU and Stevens Point have proven they are, while Amherst hasn't had that opportunity yet due to their schedule.

Just one voters opinion. 


Bob Quillman
WJBC Radio, Bloomington, IL
Color analyst, Illinois Wesleyan basketball broadcasts
D3hoops.com Top 25 voter

[mrmike88]

It would be nice to be #1 in January, but it would be much nicer to be #1 after Salem.

There's a long way to go.  Being #1 (or not) on New Year's won't guaruntee anything.  Amherst still has Tufts, Bates, Trinity, and Rhode Island College on the schedule, all on the road.  As an Amherst student, I don't care what the Jeffs are ranked right now.  All I care about is continuing to win.  If they are truly a top team, they'll show us on the court between now and March.