MBB: NESCAC

[Amherst95]

I sent Simmons a message suggesting that Holy Cross would have missed the NESCAC conference tourney this year, since Bates was last in and Bates was good.  I'm sure he'll read it very soon.

[diehardfan]

Williams 04... definitely. That final four was stronger than this one, in my opinion, by a pretty good measure. I think the Williams-Amherst semifinal game was close more because it was  rivalry game than because of the "This year's Amherst team was stronger than the 04 team who played close to Williams." argument. The NESCAC teams were particularly strong that year, so it was really cool that they were seperated that far in the brackets.

There aren't many just straight unbiased posters that can say they were at both games game.Would be interesting to know what the various d3 sports broadcasters thought.

Crotty is also still my best NESCAC player in recent years... with no disrespect intended toward the many other excellent NESCAC players that I've seen over the years.

[fpc85]

Williams 04... definitely. That final four was stronger than this one, in my opinion, by a pretty good measure. I think the Williams-Amherst semifinal game was close more because it was  rivalry game than because of the "This year's Amherst team was stronger than the 04 team who played close to Williams." argument. The NESCAC teams were particularly strong that year, so it was really cool that they were seperated that far in the brackets.

There aren't many just straight unbiased posters that can say they were at both games game.Would be interesting to know what the various d3 sports broadcasters thought.

Crotty is also still my best NESCAC player in recent years... with no disrespect intended toward the many other excellent NESCAC players that I've seen over the years.

dhf, Why would you think william '04 would win? post play? defense?

[walzy31]

Crotty is also still my best NESCAC player in recent years... with no disrespect intended toward the many other excellent NESCAC players that I've seen over the years.

Crotty wasn't even the best player on his team. 9 coaches out of 10 would take Olson over Crotty (Paulson the Grey Duck) and 10 coaches out of 10 would take Coffin over Crotty.

[formerbant10]

This may be the first time I haven't completely agreed with you in a long time Walzy.  I don't know if 9 out of 10 would pick Olson....both guys bring a lot to the table.  Both played on great teams, both win titles as juniors, both are great point guards.  Not saying I wouldn't take Olson, but I think it's way too close to say 9 out of 10.

[Amherst95]

Williams 04... definitely. That final four was stronger than this one, in my opinion, by a pretty good measure. I think the Williams-Amherst semifinal game was close more because it was  rivalry game than because of the "This year's Amherst team was stronger than the 04 team who played close to Williams." argument.

diehardfan:  There are no more knowledgeable posters than you on this site.  Nevertheless, to the extent you suggest that the '04 seminifinal game was close because it was a rivalry game, you make a conclusion which is not supported by the results of the teams' other games that season.  Also, it's not clear how the rivalry would affect a national semifinal game, in which, presumably, the players would already have maximum motivation.

Re the question of the '04 Williams team vs. the '07 Amherst team, these things are always fun to argue about.  Personally I can't take part, since there's no way I could talk about it objectively (although I can wonder why we're not talking about Williams' '03 champs instead).  What I'm sure of is that posterity does not recognize finer points like this.  Posterity remembers banners, and does not offer meaningful distinctions between them.

[JeffRookie2]

I cant comment on the Williams teams 0f '03 or '04, as I never saw them play, but I think there is a tendancy to think that this year's amherst team was not as good as the team from '04 because there were not as many flashy scorers like zieja or bedford or fitzsimmons, but this team had several things that team didnt have such as an amazing point guard in Olson and great team defense highlighted by stoppers like McLaughlin and Salerno. I know Adam Harper was really good, but this team's defense was incredible, especially down the stretch. I think this '07 team could probably beat some of those older Amherst teams, and by extension at least play with those older Williams teams.

[fpc85]

It is nice to have this team even mentioned with some of those outstanding Williams and Amherst teams. It's always tough tough judge... and being very close to many members of this year's squad I would never bet against them. I know this year's players always felt that some of the previous teams at Amherst were very talented and are as deserve a lot of credit for establishing an outstanding program. They are very grateful for the leadership and standards that the classes of since 2000 established. Even the older players that play in the alumni game are very connected with this group. I think at this level at team may win it in a particular year but it is usually due in large part of the efforts of the classes before them.

[David Blaine]

I cant comment on the Williams teams 0f '03 or '04, as I never saw them play, but I think there is a tendancy to think that this year's amherst team was not as good as the team from '04 because there were not as many flashy scorers like zieja or bedford or fitzsimmons

Neither Zieja nor Fitzimmons were on the '04 team, they had both graduated the year before. The comparison is being made to the team that featured Donovan, Harper, and Tim Jones. I believe Zieja was actually one of the coaches of the '04 team.

[blacklordjeff]

Interesting debate...wish I could offer up a completely unbiased opinion...hehehe

Well I think this years Amherst Squad would have played the Williams 04 squad very well and probably would have beaten them in any sort of series.  I'd take the Amherst squad in a one game series too but the loss this year in the NESCAC finals shows that anything can happen when these two teams meet.  I think the difference in the game would come down to depth and length.  This Amherst Sqaud is crazy long and would have given Williams problems.  But let's go position by position for fun:

Olson vs Crotty
Crotty was incredible and Olson is incredible.  Its tempting to make this a push but slight edge to Olson because I think he's a better shooter and much quicker.

Tmac vs Jaris
The senior version of TMAC was a shut down defender and more than capable on the offensive end, in fact, the jumper got better and better each game.  Jaris was a shut down defender also capable of making a shot or two.  He was also good at getting the the free throw line.  Edge TMac partly because of his athleticism (did I just pick a white guy being more athletic than a black guy, WHOA, what is the world coming too hehe)

I'm going to stop saying who I think is better, cuz its gonna be the Amherst Guy each time I couldnt bring myself to say anything else, so I'll stop, continuing...

BBas vs Chucky
Baskauskas is another long and talented scorer who I know would have given Chucky problems.  Big Abba had big heart but I think Bbas would have been hard for him to handle.

Dan Wheeler vs Tucker Kain
Now this is an interesting match up.  Both "big men" who could have probably played the three somewhere else with laser three point accuracy.  Tucker is probably a bit faster, but Dubbs would have had him in the weight department.  Very hard to pick.

Shea man vs Ben Coffin
Coffin was an All American and easily one of the most difficult post players that I've ever had to defend, always respect to this guy (plus he had class).  But anyway, shea man has big heart and is taller than me (harder to shoot over Shea than it was for me).  When checking Big Ben I tried to body him, keep him off the block, crowd his turn around, and more often than not try to get around far enough to keep the ball from getting to him.  Shea would have likely played him the same way again with a greater ability to challenge his patented turn around jumper.  But if you include the ability to bring in Big KHop and BJones, my lil bro, off the bench, then Coffin would have had his hands full.

I'm gonna take Amherst because of their overall depth.  If Coffin got in foul trouble, Williams was in trouble, its amazing that it didnt happen more often.  When we beat them at home to end their streak, Ben got in foul trouble pretty early and I know it helped.  But if Shea picks up two quick ones, KHop has his back, and Bjones has his back, and there are enough 6'6' guys on the bench to step in if need be.  Now again, obviously I'm biased, but I'm still taking the Amherst 07 over Williams 04. 

Now whether or not Amherst 07 beats Amherst 04 is a completely different story.  You would have to throw in some Big Brother Advantages for 04 and I'm defintiely taking us.  But this could be done.  Give Me, Donno, Harps, Drew, Ray Ray, (not to mention Russell Lee, Cas, Bedford, et al off the bench) a couple weeks to get in shape and we could play this game.  Somebody wanna organize that, i need something to train for.

[formerbant10]

So Amherst 04>Amherst 07>Williams 04???

I won't disagree bout Amherst 04 over 07, I think the league was better then (slightly biased as is BLJ) but Williams 04 ended up being slightly better than Amherst 04 in the end.

All in all, those 3 teams were pretty f'in good and have nothing to be ashamed of.  Most teams in the country would give anything to end up how they did.

[walzy31]

Now whether or not Amherst 07 beats Amherst 04 is a completely different story.  You would have to throw in some Big Brother Advantages for 04 and I'm defintiely taking us.  But this could be done.  Give Me, Donno, Harps, Drew, Ray Ray, (not to mention Russell Lee, Cas, Bedford, et al off the bench) a couple weeks to get in shape and we could play this game.  Somebody wanna organize that, i need something to train for.

I would pay $231 to work the clock at that game. Those monies can start the ball rolling on providing a few bus and train rides from NYC to Amherst.
How the game would go:

Olson
5-8   1-3  2-2  13pts   1 reb   9 assists  2 turnovers
Ray
1-2   0-1  2-2  4pts     1 reb   7 assists  2 turnovers

Basko
5-7   3-4  1-1  14pts   6 rebs  2 assists  1 turnover 2 blocks
Donno
3-5   3-5  4-4  13 pts  2 rebs  4 assists  0 turnovers

McLaughlin
2-6  1-4  2-3  7pts  2 rebs  2 assists 1 turnover  1 block 3 steals
Harper
8-15  2-4  2-4  20pts 4 rebs  3 assists 2 turnovers 5 steals

KHop
7-10  0-0  3-3  17pts 3 rebs 1 assist 3 turnovers 6 blocks
Schiel
5-12  4-6  5-7 19pts  2 rebs 1 assist 3 turnovers 1 block

Wheeler
4-10 3-6 3-4  14 pts 4 rebs 1 assist 2 turnovers 1 block
Jones
3-4  1-1  5-6 12 pts  7 rebs  4 assists  1 turnover 3 blocks

Swap Basko and Mclaughlin's lines depending on who Harper guards. I have Harper on Timmy to start off.

04 starters by 3 over first 5 of 07...BUT

Then you got Russell, Cas and Boo versus Fletch, Brandon, Sa, and Shea...and dolphe and goldy. 2007 Team 88 - 2004 team 83

The game would feature two of my favorite three players in Amherst history. Lots of dunks, blocks and fouls. And TONS of 3pt shooting. Schiel would be very tough to match up with on the perimeter. Wheeler/Hops would have inside presence over Jones/Schiel.
Harper/McLaughlin would be all over the place but not stealing it from one another. Harper picked up his scoring average overseas so he will certainly get his.

[blacklordjeff]

Now see this is where we'd have to limit the team to 3 or something.  Because the extension of the 04 bench are starters on the 07 team, CRAZYNESS, who is gonna suck it up and spend the two hours that it would take to make all of these teams on NBA Live or March Madness and figure it out, anybody!?!?!  Anybody with some free time on their hands?!?!?

[dman]

i noticed that amh is looking for some teams for its home tournament.  i wonder if there will be any quality teams looking to challenge the defending champs.....

[nescac hoops]

Shea man vs Ben Coffin
Coffin was an All American and easily one of the most difficult post players that I've ever had to defend, always respect to this guy (plus he had class).  But anyway, shea man has big heart and is taller than me (harder to shoot over Shea than it was for me).  When checking Big Ben I tried to body him, keep him off the block, crowd his turn around, and more often than not try to get around far enough to keep the ball from getting to him.  Shea would have likely played him the same way again with a greater ability to challenge his patented turn around jumper.  But if you include the ability to bring in Big KHop and BJones, my lil bro, off the bench, then Coffin would have had his hands full.

i looked at coffin's numbers his last two season against you, zeija, and fitzsimmons. to be blunt, he dominated you guys and seemed to play better as the stakes were higher....02-03: 18 pts. and 12 boards (little 3 game), 11 points and 12 boards (league game), 22 pts. and 10 boards (NESCAC title game), 15 points and 8 boards (elite 8 game); 03-04: 15pts. and 9 boards (little 3 game), 14 pts. and 14 boards (league game), 26 pts. and 16 boards (NESCAC title game), 20 pts. and 9 boards (final 4 game). those numbers suggest that all the "bodying", "checking", etc. that you, zeija, schiel, fitzsimmons didn't really bother big ben too much. i see your point that amherst had much more depth in the big man slot this year but do you think fresh legs and slightly taller (though, i would argue more slender as it concerns k hop) would have made that much of a difference on a player who had his way, for the most part, with players like yourself, zeija, schiel, fitzsimmons?