MBB: NESCAC

[ephoops]

Does any one know the dates for the prospects summer camps for rising high school seniors that are hosted by Williams and Brandeis??

Pat - I recall in your interview with Hixon earlier this year that you were not aware of these summer camps when Hixon menioned it.  Any chance of some coverage of the talent?  It's my understanding that a number of the players that attend these camps wind up playing D-3 basketball.

[Pat Coleman]

Ephoops:

It's kind of a time of year we like to take a little time away from the site and also concentrate on getting D3football.com ramped up.

Also, recruiting in Division III is such a mixed bag that I'm not sure we'd gain a whole lot of insight by covering these events. You know what I mean?

[ephoops]

Pat:

I understand.  At times I forget that you not only run the basketball site, but also the football site (as well as other sports).

Perhaps some of the loyal NESCAC posters will have the opportunity to attend these camps this summer and provide reports.

Thanks for all the good work covering D3 athletics.

[WeezyFBaby]

I have been away for a while, but would like to set the record straight with regards to the "Jewish All-American" team. But I don't want to start a debate about things that have nothing to do with basketball. But some things were said that cannot stand by themselves.

People can choose to define their identity in any number of ways: gender, religion, race, nationality, family, etc. Oftentimes, it becomes confusing. Think about a guy from Arizona playing in prep school in California. Which state claims him? Is he all-state in Arizona, or California? Remember when A-Rod couldn't decide whether to play for the United States or the Dominican Republic? Think about every World Cup, there are guys that could play for two, even three countries. Sometimes a woman is born who identifies herself as a man and has a sex change. People convert religions because they feel a connection to one or another. It's all arbitrary, it's all a matter of personal identity, it's all choice, and it's all fine by me because we live in America where anyone can be proud of what they are. You may say these analogies are irrelevant, but I say it's all a matter of identity. And it's not that black and white. I would challenge you to find a person who has a singular identity. None of these kids are solely "Jewish," and not American, New Yorker, etc. etc. It's not a secret club with exclusive membership, but it's also not "a joke" (eclinchy).

As far as criteria: I think they may go by whether or not you have a synagogue affilliation, but i do know that the publication notifies you that you have been nominated and you have the choice to stop the process right there if you do not agree with the idea. I know that in the case of this particular team, Isaac Roosefelt and Ben Rudin represented American Jews in the International Maccabee games in Australia last summer. So being Jewish obviously means something to them.

Nescachoops: You compared the Jewish All-American team to a "all white-supremacist" team. That remark can actually be construed as very offensive. I think it's ignorant and grossly, grossly misguided. I suspect you didn't mean it that way, but I would say be careful. All Jews do not have the same ideology, they are of differing denomination, political leaning, etc. Not all Jews are even Zionists. Those who identify themselves as Jewish (all of the kids on these teams do to some extent, that's why they're there) recognize a common bond of some sort. And it's their place to recognize it as they see fit, not yours or mine. We're not talking ideology here. Every Jew has potential citizenship to Israel, which further roots the term "Jew," a very wide-ranging, tough to pin down term, to the ground. Isaac Roosefelt, part African-American, could move to Israel without a problem at any time in his life. It's a very strong community for some both in it and out of it. The fact that a group has been persecuted throughout history shows that Jews are not the only people who recognize the Jewish community.  So "white supremacists"...please man. 

I would not mind an all-Catholic team sponsored by the Church, or an all-Islam team, or the all-homosexual team, or the all-black team. I never minded when the NHL structured their All-Star Team as "United States vs. the World." Any group that is proud of their constituents' success should be able to honor it. You don't have to read it.

[frank uible]

Outside of a little silliness, what is wrong with an all red headed, left handed and hair parted on the right team?

[eclinchy]

Outside of a little silliness, what is wrong with an all red headed, left handed and hair parted on the right team?

Besides the fact that it wouldn't have any members?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Outside of a little silliness, what is wrong with an all red headed, left handed and hair parted on the right team?

Besides the fact that it wouldn't have any members?

I'm sure we could dig up five guys from somewhere.

[nescac hoops]

Nescachoops: You compared the Jewish All-American team to a "all white-supremacist" team. That remark can actually be construed as very offensive. I think it's ignorant and grossly, grossly misguided. I suspect you didn't mean it that way, but I would say be careful.

junkie,
I think you missed by point when you stated that there was an african american jewish memeber of this team. He was put on this team b/c he was jewish. To have any sort of accolade that is based on race, faith, etc. is just weird and hopefully outdated for our times. Maybe I am alone on this one but I can only imagine if there was an "all-white team", an "all-christian team", etc. the type of uproar it would cause....rightfully so I might add.

The white supremacy point I made was in response to my prior post with junkie. If there were to be an "all white" or an "all christian" team most would assume, and rightfully so, that it was made or construed by a white supremacy-eque group and would rightfully create an uproar. The "all jewish team" for a variety of reasons  doesn't seem as outrageous or offensive as a white supremacy team. The easiest of these reasons to explain being that our nation hasn't suffered from intoleranance of jewish member nearly as much as white supremamcists/christians. That being said, I think a lot of people would agree that in a sport where there are so many awards for a variety of things, one based on which religious building a player attends is a little weird. And no matter how different an "all white" team would be, I don't think awards of any kind should be given based on race, faith, or ethnicity. I just don't think there is a place for that.

[Wydown Blvd.]

I disagree wholeheartedly. Minorities supporting members of their group are integral to all sports (blacks in baseball, hispanics in football, hispanics and blacks in golf etc.) An all-Black d3 baseball all-star team supported by the NAACP or an all-Hispanic football team from the Hispanic Association of Colleges and Universities. As long as the support from the association promotes positive actions and values from the students, then why not treat the Glenbrook North Men's Basketball team of '05 (starting five all Jewish) like a current day Glory Road:
http://www.jewishsports.org/jewishsports/detail.asp?id=187

In 20 years, the The Rainbow/PUSH Coalition might hypothetically come up with an all-gay team, etc...

It is more important if the values that are associated with the group are positive. For example, an All-Aryan team is a terrible idea because the values associated with and promoted with something all-aryan are terrible. I think that an All-Christian team (probably supported by a group such as the CBA, Christian Broadcasters Association) wouldn't be all white btw. In fact, it would probably have the same black to white ratios as current All-D3 teams.

[WeezyFBaby]

nescac hoops:

i obviously understand your sentiment. human beings are 99.9% the same, yet everybody focuses on differences. sure, in a perfect world, we'd have the "all human" team and nothing else.

but you seem to have no problem with an all american team. all state? why does that have no stigma? to me, it all seems arbitrary. what about the front page of this website. we, as the "division 3" family, are proud of one of our own who succeeded in becoming an NBA GM. "division 3" is a distinction we have created that is just as arbitrary and anything else. but we feel an undeniable pride, apparently.

i agree with wydown blvd. 1000 percent. we live in a world of subcommunities, and to be honest i do not think that is an awful thing. i think all human beings are equal, but i do feel a special pride when i read about somebody from MY family succeeding, MY high school succeeding, when i hear about an alum from MY college doing well, MY state, and MY religious community. like wydown said, it's all positive. in all of the previously stated examples, it's pride, it's tradition, it's history. i think you're harping on all the baggage that comes with "organized" religion. i think you're saying an all jewish team is closer to an all white supremacist team (ridiculous), when it is really closer to an all state or all region team. please just drop the white supremacist point it makes no sense. in your last point you assumed that "If there were to be an "all white" or an "all christian" team most would assume, and rightfully so, that it was made or construed by a white supremacy-eque group and would rightfully create an uproar." you can be proud without being "zealous" in the sense that we see on CNN every day. you're associating religion, which in its iteration here is merely a defined community of shared ancestry/tradition and nothing else, with ideology and proselytizing . and you seem to ALWAYS tag negativity to it. it's not an issue of "supremacy" and nobody is being demeaned. jews aren't claiming to be better athletes by putting their team out (obviously...the whole team is from d3... they would get killed). it's like rooting for your own team without rooting against the other team, the sportsmanship credo we all learn as children. take this stuff for for what it is, or ignore it.

[nescac hoops]

weezy and wydown,

i think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. wydown, you touched upon something i forgot to add in my last post which is what i would call "beating the odds". a movie like "glory road" is a great, touching movie b/c it is based on a time/place where blacks were widely not accepted in our nation. if a movie was made about an all black basketball team nowadays it would not do as well given less intolerance of blacks and considering that most of the nba nowadays is black. the "glory road" team "beat the odds" and continued to play/win despite all of the racism and intolerance they faced. many in their same position would have quit or crumblesd, which is what makes this film so special. a friend of mine is currently doing a documentary on young girl from iraq who immigrated here in the fifth grade. as an iraqi child she was never given the opportunity to play sports given the cultral and religious belief in her native country that "sports were not for girls". upon coming to the US she picked up sports and talks about how sports have been a "liberator" from her life in iraq despite having no support from her parents who hold on to traditional values. the documentary is good for a variety of reasons but the best reason is that it a story about a girl who has overcome the odds and has done something positive for herself. The same can be said for the special olympics. And the same can be said about individuals coming from low income backgrounds (think rink/court/referee/uniform/travel costs for youths in sports these days).

Hispanics in golf/tennis/hockey/football is not as common as with other sports and the same for blacks in hockey/tennis/golf and now apparently baseball (or at least Gary Sheffield and stats say so) making awards for players of these races/ethnicities noteworthy. Many hispanics in baseball have to overcome language barrier. Personally, I think Dice-K wasn't worth the money but I'm still amazed that a guy with very little english speaking abilities is able to do as well as he is in a position that many require so much communicatino with their cather. In this sense, I think awards for such players is more relevant. As I mentioned above with the girl from Iraq, it is noteworthy b/c both her religion and country created extreme obstacles for her try sports. While I have been fortunate to be surrounded by liberal thinking individuals, I may be wrong in saying that Jewish members don't have to overcome the same obstacles, be it self inflicted cultral values from family members or intolerant members of our society. Perhaps players from this all-jewish team have faced discrimination from their communites and school - but going to a nescac school I don't think players like rudin or jake w. have really had to "beat the odds". I would change my statement of "race, ethnicity, and religion" having no place for an award to being "race, ethinicity, religion" having no place unless it some way
inhibited/deterred and created an obstacle for one's success such as with the girl from iraq. perhaps i'm wrong but i don't think being jewish in any way inhibits playing sports more than any other religion. i could go into why blacks and hispanics have not broken into sports like hockey, tennis, golf, etc. and some socioeconomic reasons but i think we have all heard them.

I don't know if I am clarifyng myself any. I guess I see awards such as "the rookie of year" as an award that honors the youngest who "beat the odds" by having a good season and showing a lot of promise depsite being the most inexperienced and often times having less strength than older, more mature players. In other words, I think if there are to be awards based on a "group" be it "freshman", "white", "black", "muslim" ,etc. and not solely to do with skill only seem appropriate if there is some sort of "beating the odds" aspect to it that displays the character of these individuals. While  "rookie of the year", the "special olympics", movies like "glory road", etc. all say something about the character of these individuals b/c they overcame an obstacle, I don't think rudin or jake w. had to display a great deal of pride, courage, etc. to be a good jewish bball player. that's not to say that these individuals do not possess these traits but i don't think its b/c they are jewish and are good at basketball.

[Wydown Blvd.]

I can't speak for a Jewish person on how hard it is to beat the odds and stereotypes to be an excellent basketball player. Where I am from (Irish suburb of Boston), Jewish people are heavily discriminated against, but obviously in other areas of the Northeast this is not true. (and Rudin and Jake W. may have had a decently easy path to success although I don't know their life stories) Thank you though for clarifying your stance. We agree that "beating the odds" is a positive value attributed to several awards currently handed out.

Btw the UAA v. NESCAC all-star game would be ridiculous. Although the UAA would win in a heartbeat... (dang i'm so bias)

[eclinchy]

While I can't speak for Cohen, Rudin or Jared Ashe, as I don't really know much about their backgrounds, let me point out two things about the All-Jewish representative from my school.

- Jake Weitzen is from New York City.  NYC has the second-largest Jewish population in the entire world, behind only Tel Aviv.
- He now goes to Tufts.  The admissions people would have us believe he's in a 30% Jewish community, but let me tell you, every time I walk into an empty classroom on Yom Kippur, it feels more like 95%.  My point is, Jews hardly stand out on campus, and I have my doubts about there being any need for them to "beat the odds."

Anyway my original post of "is this a joke?" was not meant to imply that Judaism was a joke or that the merits of Jake/Cohen/Rudin/Ashe didn't deserve respect, but just that I've never heard of the Jewish Sports Review.  Google turned up nothing, a quick look at the four schools' athletics websites for press releases was fruitless, no one on D3Hoops was writing about it, etc.  I was unsure about this all-Jewish team even exisiting.

But if it does, that's fine by me.  I see nothing wrong with people who take pride in their religion and want to recognize some of their own.  While I don't think Jews in NYC or in NESCAC sports really face much persecution for their religion, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be proud of their identity.  I agree with weezy that it's just a matter of people showing pride in their subcommunities... just like communities like D3, the NESCAC, and individual schools like Tufts/Colby/Middlebury/Wesleyan do.

And honestly, nescac hoops, I have no idea what your random tangents about Gary Sheffield, Daisuke Matsuzaka and Iraqi fifth-graders have to do with anything.

[Wydown Blvd.]

http://www.jewishsportsreview.com/
It is paper-based but seems pretty thorough with their coverage of Jewish athletes. I'm not sure eclinchy if this is what you were looking for.

I think awards should and can be either "beating the odds" or "sub-groups honors." Hey do what you want to do Jewish Sports Review...

[eclinchy]

Hmm, okay.  My problem was that I was googling for the specific article on this team, so I searched for "jewish sports review weitzen" or something like that.  Apparently the publication does exist after all.  My apologies.

Did they actually write something about these guys, or was it just a laundry-list of players?  I'd love to read about this "team."