MBB: NESCAC

[speedy]

I'm with you Senator, I can totally see that happening. I also find it important to note that Amherst and Williams are indeed the exception.

I'm not persuaded that Amherst and Williams are the exception. They do too well in sports (better than most other NESCACs) to be applying the same exacting admissions standards to their athletes that they apply to their other students. The Amherst admissions director has been quoted making some candid remarks about how far Amherst dips below their regular admissions standards to assemble their football and hockey teams. 

[senatorfrost]

Of course both Williams and Amherst dip. My guess would be that they both go as low as the 1200's for the RIGHT player. What I guess I should have been clearer about is that schools like Bowdoin and Middlebury can go to the 1000's and I would bet even lower in rare instances. Point is Williams and Amherst, I believe dip no more than 200 points below their average while NESCAC schools that don't require SAT's can and do go 300+ points lower than their average SAT. Of course places like Bowdoin and Middlebury can argue that they did not take anyone who submitted a score as low as 1000 for any of their teams and that could be true because the athlete most likely did not submit his/her score if it was 1000.
   One of the schools from another conference I know has gone about 400 points below their average SAT score by the way.
   I might add that All schools probably tell folks to take both the SAT and the ACT and of course the higher score will count. I am aware that Amherst had a period where it dipped much more than today. I read the reason was football.
As far as Williams is concerned I know nothing about any basketball or football admits but then there's soccer. My jaw dropped on hearing about a couple past admits.
    Amherst and Williams have stopped all that and unlike Middlebury and Bowdoin, it's all on the record. When the other NESCAC schools dip, it's not that big a deal because for the most part they can get whoever they want by only dipping 200 points (or so) because their average SAT score is probably in the 1200's to begin with.
   Wesleyan has a high SAT average but whatever they do as far as dipping goes, doesn't seem to be working for the most part.

[speedy]

I have heard that the Bowdoin coaches are expected to direct their recruits to submit their SATs if they plan on using a tip for them. If the athlete's GPA is below the usual standards, the admissions department wants to be certain that the athlete will be able to handle the work so the advantage you think Bowdoin has in dealing with athletes does not really exist. And of course the proof is in the pudding - if Bowdoin had the advantage you describe, it would be a lot more competitive in football and basketball than it is!!

If you look at the SAT data for Williams and Amherst, you will see that there are plenty of admits in the 600s and a goodly number in the 500s. In the case of Amherst, for example, about 7% of the class of 2010 scored in the 500s -  A fair number of them could easily be athletes . .

[senatorfrost]

 At Williams and Amherst.I think it's likely that some of the 500's you see belong to disadvantaged students. I would also think it's likely that most of them had a 700 something to balance out the 500-Or at least a 650 or so to go with the 500.
I would also guess that there were a few athletes with a 500 something and again balanced out by a 700 something.
  The SAT scores get submitted almost automatically even if student says they do not want to submit them. Then the admissions department is instructed to ink them out or something like that, but of course they probably write them down somewhere.
   So I believe that all admissions folks know the scores but I will also bet that they are not submitted to U.S. News et. al. I would bet that schools like bowdoin don't take in students they consider to be academic risks but I absolutely believe that they take student athletes with SAT's in the 1000's. Probably not a whole lot but some. Check it out. Ask someone point blank.
   I have talked with a number of parents through the years and my impression is that Amherst wants to see at least 1300+. The world being what it is they probably take in a 1200+ once in a while. I once had a Bowdoin parent tell me their son's SAT score. You should talk to some of them. When I say 'them' I mean the parents of the better players.
   The actuality of SAT scores are that they are a good predictor of how students will do in their first year. Aftrer that they don't mean much. That info came from a Director of Admissions at a NESCAC school-(Not Amherst or Williams)

[speedy]

Sorry but I believe that any NESCAC that does well in sports, Williams and Amherst included, is dipping just as low as the Bowdoins of the world for their star athletes. For every anecdote that you have of the parent of a Bowdoin student, there is the info available on the Internet of HS prospects who end up at Williams, for example, that naively report their 1050 SATs on recruiting websites. Perhaps they take their SATS again and again and again and again until until they reach that magical number of 1200 but the bottom line is that there are athletes at Amherst and Williams who are subpar academically.

[senatorfrost]

I remember when the Middlesex magic used to put the SAT score up. I remember 2 players and their scores. Both went to Williams. 1240 (about) and 1350 (about)
  I suppose the name of all those 1000's who went to williams or Amherst have either be forgotten, their names that is. I would love to meet you one time and give you some names and numbers re: Bowdoin. I doubt you could so the same v Williams and Amherst. If you are really a believer, you would be floored-If you know someone in athletics, why not ask? You seem to know someone on the inside, so why not ask? I'd like to see them not fess up.
  I can give you the names of two who did not get into Amherst with 1100's. Those numbers are according to their parents.

[speedy]

Actually I do know the names of two Williams kids on the current football team who scored below 1100 and were B students. I doubt that they are alone . .

[nescac1]

Good thing you are making hearsay statements about players having low scores, not high ones, Speedy.  We went through this whole exercise recently on the NESCAC football message board: when you make any claim, not backed by a news article or other "hard evidence," that Williams players in fact have higher credentials than is commonly asserted / believed (for instance it was posted on WSO last year that the head coach informed a veteran player that the average SAT for Williams football recruits in the class of 2010 was 1405, which would make it pretty hard to have players with below 1100, which I still do not believe exist on the CURRENT team) everyone bashes the posting of unsubstantiated hearsay, but the moment anyone posts anything to denigrate Williams players without substantiation, Pat et. al. are deathly quiet.  All I know is, both Williams and Amherst made it publically known that they were raising the standards for low-band tips, as well as limiting the total number of tips admitted, reforms not adopted by every NESCAC school.  I would be absolutely shocked if anyone was accepted to Williams or Amherst today for athletics alone (unless there was some other factor like socio-economic disadvantage or being the kid of a trustee or something) with lower than an 1100.  I'd say lower than even 1250 would even be exceedingly rare at either school.   After all, both have a huge percentage of varsity athletes, and it would bring those 1430 SAT averages down pretty quickly to have more than a very small handful of sub-1200 scores floating around. 

[Pat Coleman]

the moment anyone posts anything to denigrate Williams players without substantiation, Pat et. al. are deathly quiet. 

I've been on vacation. Don't mistake my taking a couple of days off from reading a slow board for not caring.

[JeffRookie2]

Looks like Hixon is having some trouble finding a team to play in the Ken Wright Invitational, judging by his post on the scheduling page. Looks like the rest of new england is finally wising up to the fact that they have no shot of winning there. I imagine it will be very difficult for Hixon to find as many Tuesday Night Cupcakes as he has in he past.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Looks like Hixon is having some trouble finding a team to play in the Ken Wright Invitational, judging by his post on the scheduling page. Looks like the rest of new england is finally wising up to the fact that they have no shot of winning there. I imagine it will be very difficult for Hixon to find as many Tuesday Night Cupcakes as he has in he past.

I doubt it.  I think there are plenty of teams that don't mind going to Amherst for a game or two, even if they are overmatched.

[uaapride]

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to play Amherst. If you knock them off, your an immediate front page story and the talk of the town. Any coach with a beating heart and competitive nature should be jumping at this opportunity.

[walzy31]

I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to play Amherst. If you knock them off, your an immediate front page story and the talk of the town. Any coach with a beating heart and competitive nature should be jumping at this opportunity.

It's interesting. Part of me agrees with you, but part of me thinks this:
If the team in NE is going to compete for a bid to the NCAAs, they don't want to play Amherst because a win over them is as valued as a win over a team with a .666 win pct (or .750...i dont remember), and it will be harder to get.
If the team is not going to be a .500+ caliber team, it is an auto-loss for them to play Amherst (yeah yeah yeah "cocky amherst statement"... but think about it.)
But if I were a coach in NE who was going to go 12-12, might as well let your kids have a crack at a top 10 program.

[JeffRookie2]

I actually talked to a player the other day who told me he has was having trouble, and then i saw hixon's post on this site. so clearly he is having some difficulties getting schools to come play. I mean, forget the competition, who wouldn't want $250, some pizza and free tee shirts?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I actually talked to a player the other day who told me he has was having trouble, and then i saw hixon's post on this site. so clearly he is having some difficulties getting schools to come play. I mean, forget the competition, who wouldn't want $250, some pizza and free tee shirts?

Don't forget the hotel rooms.