MBB: NESCAC

[hoopjunkie]

Can anyone confirm power forward all american from Brandeis Steve DeLuca has been injured ? I heard he will be out of action for the first semester .

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Since when is there a "be all and end all" poll in d3 sports.

I never said "be all and end all," but the d3hoops.com poll is the recognized national poll.  While the NCAA still uses their own regional rankings to determine post-season berths, they do recognize the d3hoops.com poll as the "D-III Coach's Poll" and display it on the website.  It's certainly far more legit than Street & Smith.

http://www.ncaasports.com/basketball/mens/polls/rankings/diviii-coaches

[nescac hoops]

thank you hoops fan, but i am well aware of the different types of polls out there. i'm not sure what makes for a "legitimate poll" in d3 for reasons i mentioned in my prior post in regards to lack of exposure and lack of inter-region play.
So I will not...

Hold your horses there.  They're not really top ten until the d3hoops.com poll comes out. 

...because all pre-season polls are pretty stupid. Here is d3hoops pre-season poll last year...http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/07/index.html   WashU, a final four finalist, didn't even receive votes. Bates was ranked 28th and finished EIGHTH in the NESCAC. Tufts was ranked 12th here and finished 6th in the nescac. I am sure there are other discrepancies. Ill read the pre-season d3hoops poll with the same grain a salt as I would any other "non-legitimate" preseason poll.

[walzy31]

Hold your horses there.  They're not really top ten until the d3hoops.com poll comes out. 

...because all pre-season polls are pretty stupid. Here is d3hoops pre-season poll last year...http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/07/index.html   WashU, a final four finalist, didn't even receive votes. Bates was ranked 28th and finished EIGHTH in the NESCAC. Tufts was ranked 12th here and finished 6th in the nescac. I am sure there are other discrepancies. Ill read the pre-season d3hoops poll with the same grain a salt as I would any other "non-legitimate" preseason poll.

Yeah that preseason poll from last year looks pretty terrible. Look who they had as #1, #2 and #3. What were they thinking not having Wash U #4? Idiots.

[nescac hoops]

ahhhh, walzy is back after his stupid "bake sale" comment. with rumors of a steve leduca injury, the out of conference schedule for the 'herst just went from "bake sale" to i don't even know what.

predicting the top 4 teams is RELATIVELY easy given how the tourny regions are selected in d3 with very few teams ever placed out of their region - if you can pick the top team out of each of the ncaa tourny regions they be ranked 1-4 based on their perfomance in salem and you don't have to worry about how the second or third ranked team in a region would do against a top ranked team from a different region b/c those matchups will rarely occur given that the d3 tourny rarely ever sends teams out of region. in '03 i think that amherst was a top 4 team but they didn't make it out of a region that had the best team that year. this was corrected in 2004 by having amherst play in a different region but that was very rare and most likely only happened b/c they were only being sent to NJ. personally i think UWSP (d3 hoops preseason poll #25) ran into the WashU buzzsaw last year in the tourny but they were probably better than the final poll ranking. in other words, i will not be going out on much of a limb by saying that washU and amherst will be finish ranked somewhere in the top 4 this year as they are the definitive top teams in their respective regions. it's the 5-receiving votes rankings that are the hardest to rank in d3 and require "knowledge" to predict.

while you are butting in an argument, you should know that i was commenting on the absurdity of williams being ranked 10th in the street and smith poll...d3hoops preseason #10 last year didn't even make it to the finals of their conference tourny and didn't even make the big dance. i'm not saying i could do any better but i'm not exactly "holding my horses" for the d3hoops preseason poll to come up nor am i at all thrilled that one poll had williams ranked as high as 10.

[JeffRookie2]

I have to say, I did not think that Wash U looked all that spectacular in the final four. Troy Ruths is no where near the talent level of a Brandon Adair or that Wooster guy who killed us or Tyler Rhoten. He's a TERRIBLE finisher.

Sean Wallis is the guy you really have to watch out for on that team... he's their version of Olson. He makes sure they play smart basketball for 40 minutes and can score a little when he needs to. I think Amherst found out last year though that they could shut down any team with only two legitimate offensive options.

[The Historian]

Glad to see d3hoops featuring the story on Coulibaly that I linked to a few weeks ago.  But, Pat, c'mon, please give credit where credit is due.  You simply copied the text of Alex Kantor's (Amherst's SID) great article.  But no credit is given to him.  It comes across as an original d3hoops article.

As any historian -- or high school history student -- knows, you must cite your sources.

What you've done is not only unethical, but quite possibly illegal.  Would nbcsports.com (that's your night job, right?) allow you to just copy an article verbatim from espn.com and post it with no reference at all to the original author?

While I don't expect d3hoops to be a standard-bearer in terms of journalistic integrity, what you've done is terribly bush league.

Oh, and before you accuse me of not being a close reader and noticing that the d3hoops article is not exactly verbatim, I did notice your edits.  But they hardly make it an original work.

If you like, I can share with you the lesson on plagarism, including proper citation, quotation, and paraphrasing, that I taught my 9th graders the other day.

[Pat Coleman]

Glad to see d3hoops featuring the story on Coulibaly that I linked to a few weeks ago.  But, Pat, c'mon, please give credit where credit is due.  You simply copied the text of Alex Kantor's (Amherst's SID) great article.  But no credit is given to him.  It comes across as an original d3hoops article.

As any historian -- or high school history student -- knows, you must cite your sources.

What you've done is not only unethical, but quite possibly illegal.  Would nbcsports.com (that's your night job, right?) allow you to just copy an article verbatim from espn.com and post it with no reference at all to the original author?

While I don't expect d3hoops to be a standard-bearer in terms of journalistic integrity, what you've done is terribly bush league.

Oh, and before you accuse me of not being a close reader and noticing that the d3hoops article is not exactly verbatim, I did notice your edits.  But they hardly make it an original work.

If you like, I can share with you the lesson on plagarism, including proper citation, quotation, and paraphrasing, that I taught my 9th graders the other day.

We don't claim it as an original work -- we didn't put our byline on it, did we? Nor do we really credit press releases -- they are press releases. The essence being the word "release."

[NESCACAlumn]

Why don't you credit press releases?

[Pat Coleman]

Why don't you credit press releases?

Well, I should clarify. If it is sent to me with a byline, we'd run with it. But this was sent to me without one. It would be wrong to make one up.

Historian, I hope those 9th graders aren't being taught journalism by you. You seem to not be very aware of how news works. A press release is just that -- a release. Newspapers and news sites use them this way all the time. In fact, most put 'from staff or wire reports' at the top.

[The Historian]

Pat, I'm quite sure that my students are in good hands.  Thanks for your concern.

I had hoped that you would see my post and simply think to yourself, "Oh wow, he's probably right.  d3hoops borrowed a story written by Alex Kantor that was originally posted on the Amherst website with his byline.  We didn't get Alex's permission to use the story; we didn't even notify him that we put it up.  Let me rectify this right away and simply add Alex's name to the byline.  It wouldn't take anything away from the story or the d3hoops website and it would be the honorable -- and probably legal -- thing to do."

That's what I hoped you would do, Pat, but instead you try to defend yourself.  In my opinion, this just makes your act more pathetic.  Nixon-esque.  Just admit that you should have given credit to Alex, a professional SID who spent a lot of time crafting that article.  Just add his name to the website.  Don't waste your energy trying to defend yourself on minor technicalities.

I dare you to ask any SID in the nation about this issue.  Would they like it if they wrote an in-depth public interest article that was subsequently stolen by your website, posted without their permission, and given no credit for their work?  I dare you to ask.

I'm sure they would be flattered to have their work featured on the front page of d3hoops, but I'm also sure that they would want their due credit.

Also, for what it's worth, when a website or newspaper uses an article from a press release, credit is still given to the source.  The "from staff or wire reports" (to use your example) such as the AP or Reuters IS the source.  So at the very least you could have given the article a byline of "from an Amherst College press release," which I have seen your site do for box scores and game write-ups in the past.

Moreover, I never did say that you had claimed the article as your own.  My only point was that it "came across as an original d3hoops article."  I stand by that contention, and again I dare you to find a neutral party who would disagree.  When I go to a website and see a feature-length article with no byline, I assume that it was written by the site's staff or editorial board.

I challenge you to provide me with an example of a commercial site like yours that regularly posts stories -- not game releases or minor press releases, but full-fledged, in-depth articles -- that originated on another site without giving ANY credit -- even a hyperlink to the original -- to the author.

Again, I ask you if nbcsports.com would allow you to post an article you found on espn.com without giving credit to the original author?  Would they?

I hope, Pat, that this is my last post about this.  I hope that you just eat some humble pie and admit that you should have given Alex Kantor credit for his fine article.  I hope that you rectify this asap and put his name up there.  And I hope that you would simply post a short apology to Alex on this message board (which I know he reads) or, even better, on the front page of d3hoops.

I know better than to expect such professional and mature behavior, but it is my hope.

[NESCACAlumn]

JeffRookie2,
I have to disagree with you. Having seen Troy Ruths play a couple of times I felt he was a high caliber player. Are you are saying he was a "TERRIBLE" finisher because you saw him miss a dunk? He still shot 56 percent from the field. The Wash U team was pretty impressive as a cohesive unit. In fact I thought they matched up better to Amherst than the other two teams at the final four. Perhaps ask a few of your classmates on the team?
I'm also not so sure why you meantioned or what you meant by the last portion about Amherst learning they could shut down a team with only two legitimate offensive weapons?  
As far as Street and Smith's DIII preview, it doesn't hold much weight. Its in the market for professional and big time division 1 previews and reviews. They put a one or two page piece in the back of the book to appease us DIII fans, alumni, and players. I don't think they invest any extensive research. It could easily be argued that the bigs from Tufts or Amherst, or some of the talented guards across the league could have been mentioned, perhaps in lieu of some of the NESCAC guys named.
I don't know, just my two cents

[The Historian]

I just wanted the readers of this board to know that the front page feature article on Adolphe Coulibaly and the included photo were stolen from a feature article written by Amherst College's Sports Information Director, Alex Kantor.

You can find the original article here:

https://cms.amherst.edu/athletics/teams/winter/basketball-m/articles/2007_08/0927_coulibaly_feature

Pat Coleman has been asked to give credit to the original author of this article, but he has refused to do so.  He has even refused to post a byline to the article saying that it first appeared in an Amherst College release.

I love this website and enjoy the attention it gives to d3 basketball, but I am seriously disturbed by this complete and utter disregard for journalistic integrity on the part of Pat Coleman.

Alex Kantor is a professional SID, and his professional work should be rightfully credited.  He was never asked permission to have his words posted to this commercial website, and his personal request to Pat Coleman to have his name added to the front page of the website was promptly rebuked.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm sorry you've felt the need to continue this. Alex has contacted me and we will continue our dialogue on the subject. However, there was no byline provided on the press release e-mailed to us, so I don't know how we were supposed to read their mind and assign a name. Most of the time when we get a press release feature, it's actually written by a student, and the SID only sends it to us.

This isn't the concern of the board. The person who sent it to us has contacted us and when we get through the football weekend, we'll see what happens.

Your continued diatribe isn't necessary. We post many, many, many press releases on the site. And items sent to us with bylines tend to get bylines. But items sent to us without bylines -- how would we guess who wrote it?

Sorry that this had to be aired publicly. If you'd just waited for the 110 football games to get through we might've been able to satisfy you.

If ESPN.com were a publicist and NBCSports.com (where I no longer work) regularly received e-mailed press releases from them, then we would do the same. Exactly the same. But your so-called example is in no way the same thing. Those are two commercial enterprises. In this case, the info was sent by a publicist. That's their job, to send releases and not to expect bylines. And it's their job to know to put a byline on a press release if they want one to be considered.

I just wanted the readers of this board to know that the front page feature article on Adolphe Coulibaly and the included photo were stolen from a feature article written by Amherst College's Sports Information Director, Alex Kantor.

You can find the original article here:

https://cms.amherst.edu/athletics/teams/winter/basketball-m/articles/2007_08/0927_coulibaly_feature

Pat Coleman has been asked to give credit to the original author of this article, but he has refused to do so.  He has even refused to post a byline to the article saying that it first appeared in an Amherst College release.

I love this website and enjoy the attention it gives to d3 basketball, but I am seriously disturbed by this complete and utter disregard for journalistic integrity on the part of Pat Coleman.

Alex Kantor is a professional SID, and his professional work should be rightfully credited.  He was never asked permission to have his words posted to this commercial website, and his personal request to Pat Coleman to have his name added to the front page of the website was promptly rebuked.

[oldknight]

I hope, Pat, that this is my last post about this. 

So do I.   Unfortunately, it wasn't.