MBB: NESCAC

[JeffRookie2]

Jeff Rookie:

Many of the players you brought up were considered.  Anyone who didn't make All-American at least once (Fitzsimmons, Harper, Abba) was not.

http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/allamericans-all.htm

Most of the guys you mentioned were named All-American just once.  It would've taken an incredible season (see Mike Nogelo) to crack the list with one All-American placement.

As for Strong and Olson, I think we need to see how they finish their careers before we can appropriately place them.  If Olson leads his team to another title, that suggests one placement.  If Amherst goes in the tank (and pigs learn to fly), that advises another placement.

And, yes, we were aware of all the players you mentioned.  I even took classes with one of them.

Its funny that you reference your own all-america lists to show that your hands were tied. I would argue that those lists are just as biased. And even your 'affiliations' are very dubious. Even those who are not officially affiliated with the CCIW could still have much more exposure to that league than the NESCAC. Who was the new hall-of-famer last year who we were informed was from the NESCAC board, but whom I've never seen post here? Pat also referenced him as our representitive in top 25 voting, but its pretty clear he is not a fan of the nescac.

All I'm saying is this: The CCIW has the same # of all-decade members as the NESCAC, WIAC and ODAC combined. Yet the CCIW has just 4 final four appearances in the last decade with 1 finals appearance and 1 championship (10 years ago), while NESCAC, WIAC, and ODAC have a combined 17 final four appearances, 11 finals appearances and 7 championships!!! In terms of final four appearances over the last decade, the NESCAC has been by far the most successful conferance, with 8 appearances, double that of the CCIW and nearly as much as the CCIW and WIAC combined. Lets not forget conferences like the MIAA and UAA that have also been very successful, but only got 1 player each. The idea that these results have no relation to the fact that Pat and the other voters are very mid-west oriented to me is very dubious.

Also, why on earth have the playoff results from last year STILL not been put up under playoffs??? It is a little weird that NOWHERE on this entire site is there any evidence that Amherst won the national championship last year!!! It's ridiculous!!

Also, the whole 'karma' thing on this site is crap when there are very few posters on this site with enough posts to use karma other than Pat and his cronies. As a result, any criticism of them results in massive loss of karma points that make other readers give less credence to you posts.

[Pat Coleman]

From here on out we will do them by the actual calendar decades, so we'll have an All-2000s team, an All-2010s team, etc. We just weren't around for enough of the 90s to do an All-1990s team.

I think people here would be well off to remember that the NESCAC, while a great conference for most of the D3hoops Decade, is only 10 teams out of 400. And the Hall of Fame posters had no say in the selection of team members (just me and the two New England guys, Gordon and Mark Simon), though we did lean on their recollections of players once they were already selected.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat also referenced him as our representitive in top 25 voting

No such thing. And your Hall of Famer posts here fairly frequently (more often on football). I'll get you some links so you can find him.

Man -- you have a little conspiracy chip on your shoulder. I'm sorry we didn't update the playoffs page for you. I didn't realize it was missed, but if you'd dropped me an e-mail at some point we'd have taken care of it.

[JeffRookie2]

From here on out we will do them by the actual calendar decades, so we'll have an All-2000s team, an All-2010s team, etc. We just weren't around for enough of the 90s to do an All-1990s team.

I think people here would be well off to remember that the NESCAC, while a great conference for most of the D3hoops Decade, is only 10 teams out of 400. And the Hall of Fame posters had no say in the selection of team members (just me and the two New England guys, Gordon and Mark Simon), though we did lean on their recollections of players once they were already selected.

I'm sorry, how many teams out of 400 is the CCIW? I count 10. And how are Gordon and Mark Simon New England guys? I've never seen them post on this board before.

Pat, Gordon, Mark, just tell me how you came to the conclusion that the CCIW has had so many amazing players and yet not had nearly the results of the NESCAC?

[Pat Coleman]

It only takes 200 posts to use karma. Scroll back and do some counting.

Gordon Mann posts under the name Gordon Mann. Mark Simon posts under the name atnwriter and while he hasn't seen Amherst play since Friday night I think he's well-versed.

[Pat Coleman]

All I'm saying is this: The CCIW has the same # of all-decade members as the NESCAC, WIAC and ODAC combined. Yet the CCIW has just 4 final four appearances in the last decade with 1 finals appearance and 1 championship (10 years ago), while NESCAC, WIAC, and ODAC have a combined 17 final four appearances, 11 finals appearances and 7 championships!!!

The NESCAC has to go through who to get to the Final Four? What other power conferences? The CCIW has to go through the WIAC and vice versa. No wonder they have trouble.

[JeffRookie2]

It only takes 200 posts to use karma. Scroll back and do some counting.

Gordon Mann posts under the name Gordon Mann. Mark Simon posts under the name atnwriter and while he hasn't seen Amherst play since Friday night I think he's well-versed.

But you can ding karma multiple times a day. (you have dinged mine 3 times in the last 5 minutes) Just give me an explanation and I'll get off your back.

[Pat Coleman]

speedy: What would moving to a new d-4 gain any of the members of NESCAC?

Here's the last post on this board by the NESCAC Hall of Fame poster. I know, it's very long ago and hard to find.

[Pat Coleman]

It only takes 200 posts to use karma. Scroll back and do some counting.

Gordon Mann posts under the name Gordon Mann. Mark Simon posts under the name atnwriter and while he hasn't seen Amherst play since Friday night I think he's well-versed.

But you can ding karma multiple times a day. (you have dinged mine 3 times in the last 5 minutes) Just give me an explanation and I'll get off your back.

It's hard to give you an explanation when your assumptions are so far offbase at the get-go. Sorry, man.

[JeffRookie2]

All I'm saying is this: The CCIW has the same # of all-decade members as the NESCAC, WIAC and ODAC combined. Yet the CCIW has just 4 final four appearances in the last decade with 1 finals appearance and 1 championship (10 years ago), while NESCAC, WIAC, and ODAC have a combined 17 final four appearances, 11 finals appearances and 7 championships!!!

The NESCAC has to go through who to get to the Final Four? What other power conferences? The CCIW has to go through the WIAC and vice versa. No wonder they have trouble.

Maybe I mis-read your article about the Little East and other under-appreciated conferances the other day? And give me a break, about 1/100 of frank's posts are on this board.

Its hard not to have a conspiracy theory when I have seen you openly begrudging Amherst's success in person after the national championship. In person, you have told me in so many words that you have a grudge against amherst. So when Amherst gets no players on the all-decade team despite being one of the most successful teams of the last decade by any measure, or when amherst just barely misses being #1 in the polls after you have said that they were not even in your consideration for #1, I don't think its unreasonable for me to feel that the team isnt getting a fair shake.

[Pat Coleman]

In the past three pages, eight posters are capable of voting on karma and eight are not. Hardly "very few posters."

Having to go through an up-and-coming conference the past year or so is not the same as being the No. 2 conference and having to face the No. 1 conference before the Final Four year-in and year-out.

How many Final Fours would the NESCAC have been to if it had to go through those teams?

I hope that answers your question. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s mean a lot more when you're playing Midwest and West teams to get there instead of the East and non-NESCAC Northeast teams.

[Pat Coleman]

In person, you have told me in so many words that you have a grudge against amherst.

Making stuff up gets you bounced from the board. I'd advise you to consider closely what you try to make people believe. The only grudge I might even have would be against crank posters who try to make up crap.

[JeffRookie2]

In the past three pages, eight posters are capable of voting on karma and eight are not. Hardly "very few posters."

Having to go through an up-and-coming conference the past year or so is not the same as being the No. 2 conference and having to face the No. 1 conference before the Final Four year-in and year-out.

How many Final Fours would the NESCAC have been to if it had to go through those teams?

I hope that answers your question. Sweet 16s and Elite 8s mean a lot more when you're playing Midwest and West teams to get there instead of the East and non-NESCAC Northeast teams.

Still, the idea that more than 1/3 of the top players in the last decade played for 2 or 3 teams is insane. How does the WIAC not get more players? They won 4 championships and had to go through the CCIW to get them.

[JeffRookie2]

In person, you have told me in so many words that you have a grudge against amherst.

Making stuff up gets you bounced from the board. I'd advise you to consider closely what you try to make people believe. The only grudge I might even have would be against crank posters who try to make up crap.

You dont remember my introducing myself to you after the game while you were whining about our winning? I think we have had this conversation before and you acknoledged the conversation. I dont know why people wouldn't believe it. Its pretty common knowledge that I was there, obviously you were there, it makes sense that I would have introduced myself, and any nescac reader would surely believe that you were displeased about the result.

[Pat Coleman]

You also think other things about this board that I've proven otherwise. Find the so-called conversation and acknowledgment.

I remember talking to Amherst fans walking by the press table after the game but since I don't hold a grudge against Amherst it would be silly for me to tell them I did.

You can ask Dave McHugh, Pat Cummings or Jared Rosenbaum if I said anything like that, but since I didn't, it would be unlikely they'd remember me saying something along those lines.

I think the grudge, in fact, is on your end against me or the site. Makes it hard for you to claim any credibility.