MBB: NESCAC

[ephoops]

Congrats to WashU.  Also, congrats to Amherst on a great run.  At this point, Amherst is the "program of the decade."

Question:

Which senior class was better: the Crotty/Coffin/Abba Williams group or the Olson/Walters/Hopkins group? 

Both classes won a national championship and finished 2nd when trying to repeat (although the Ephs lost at the buzzer in the finals against UW-SP while Amherst was blown out in their final game). 

The Amherst class had a third final four appearance, although they played two forgetable games in losing efforts when the they were sophmores.

[eclinchy]

I'm not qualified to answer that question, since I wasn't around to see those Williams guys play back in '04.  But I will say this: keep in mind the depth of this Amherst class.  Jones, Goldsmith and Coulibaly should definitely not be overlooked.

[All-around]

What was the reason for Couliby not playing much of the 2nd half of the year?

[magicman]

Congratulations to Andrew Olsen for being named as a D3Hoops 1st team All American for the 2nd year in a row. The 2 games I watched him play against Richard Stockton and Brandeis at the NCAA sectionals convinced me. Thought that Fletcher Walters could also have been on that list.

[blacklordjeff]

Congrats to Amherst for an incredible run, I was quiet this year on the board but made a point of keeping up with the Jeffs and this amazing senior class.  I wouldn't count the Jeffs out next year, the young guys have invaluable experience and there were A LOT of question marks about the '04 Amherst team that made it to the Final Four...

Ephoops, I can give a humble but honestly biased opinion on your question.  I think that this year's Senior class is better than the amazing '04 class at Williams.  Crotty was a crafty point guard that got on every opponent's nerves but Olson is a National Player of the year and one of the best point guards I've ever seen, slight edge to Amherst there, Coffin was one of the best post players I've ever played against, and more athletic than I think people gave him credit for (and if I'm not mistaken he was National player of the year?).  KHop is a freak of nature for DIII but Coffin may have been a bit more polished.  Slight edge Williams (I can't believe I just wrote that).  And Abba was a gunner, and played tough for a guy that was asked to guard bigger players, but Fletch is a more complete player and a better athlete.  Advantage Amherst.  That puts amherst up 2 -1 and if you factor in BJones, Goldy, and Adolph like Eclinchy says I think you have to go with this Amherst class being better.  Would have been a heck of a game though

[met_fan]

Coffin was one of the best post players I've ever played against, and more athletic than I think people gave him credit for (and if I'm not mistaken he was National player of the year?).  KHop is a freak of nature for DIII but Coffin may have been a bit more polished.  Slight edge Williams (I can't believe I just wrote that).

Coffin was far superior player

[fpc85]

wash u. played like the champions they are last night. the jeffs were beat in the post and on the perimeter...i don't think i remember a team scoring 90 points on them... i think they only missed 6 shots in the 2nd half...not sure what team could have beaten them yesterday. hixon mentioned that wash u. did to the jeffs what amherst had the pleasure of doing to other teams.
obviously, the jeffs didn't play well yesterday and no one hurts more than the guys who competed but nonetheless not many programs have the opportunity to win it all...two years in a row. so thanks to the coaches, parents, fans and especially the guys...the run has been special this year. thanks for the good times it makes an old coach feel good to watch talented players put egos aside to work to achieve a common goal. seniors, you know i have much love for each one of you...if people talk more about the loss yesterday than 111-12 for your career, 43-5 in the nescac, 8-1 record vs. williams  , 3 final fours, 2 championship games, 1 national championship then they don't know squat about you or what excellence means.

to the returning players people...let them all sleep on you..i know you got the skills....it is your time, represent well... g. wong  i am a man who keeps his promises.

[fpc85]

My view is Amherst alumni and faculty are likely to push for a return to more standard admission and transfer procedures for athletes as a result of recent media attention challenging current practices and apparent joining of "the athletic arms race." A similiar response took place several years ago.

Disappointing day for some good kids whose hard work may not have been fully rewarded by repeated soft out-of-conference schedules that result in program wins while hampering the ability to be most effective when things are the toughest.

i think relationships always evolve and either party would be foolish to mess up a good thing.

[fpc85]

Firm, final and definitive proof that WashU is superior to Amherst in all respects; and the UAA is to NESCAC.

hmm...must be sarcasm b/c i would have expected a more insightful response from you.

[fpc85]

Congrats to the amazing Amherst senior class on an incredible run.  And thanks to Wash U. for keeping Amherst and Williams even in the historical final four record book : each with four final four visits, one title, and one second place finish.   May be a little while before either makes a return trip now that Brandeis has loaded up on talent ... 

Surprised at the margin of victory, even if Amherst had a pretty easy road to the title game relative to Wash U. Scary to think how good Wash U. would have been with Wallis in the line-up. 

The rest of NESCAC will be very, very happy to see the Amherst senior class graduate, and of course Olson in particular.   For the first time in years, Amherst does not enter the season with a huge size and talent gap over the rest of the league.  Baskauskas, Wheeler, Meehan, and Holsey are a great top four, but after that the Jeffs have a lot of question marks ... will Bennett live up to all the hype and replace some of the front court production?  Will Carcieri / Wong / Bradley provide another viable guard option to help step into the ENORMOUS void created by Olson's graduation?  And will the hyped incoming frosh be good enough to step into the enormous void of the four big guys Amherst graduates?   

For the first time in years, NESCAC does not appear to have a national title contender next season.  Midd may be the team to beat, and after that it is pretty wide open. 

the returners on jeffs will be up to the task...lots of talent on the bench...i remember when no one thought much of the '08 class (except olson) when they weren't playing much.

[fpc85]

Congrats to WashU.  Also, congrats to Amherst on a great run.  At this point, Amherst is the "program of the decade."

Question:

Which senior class was better: the Crotty/Coffin/Abba Williams group or the Olson/Walters/Hopkins group? 

Both classes won a national championship and finished 2nd when trying to repeat (although the Ephs lost at the buzzer in the finals against UW-SP while Amherst was blown out in their final game). 

The Amherst class had a third final four appearance, although they played two forgetable games in losing efforts when the they were sophmores.

the williams crew was very good but the jeffs were better....let's set up a williams/ amherst alumni game to be played when the schools compete...that would be good stuff.

[frank uible]

Sarcasm? Me? Perish the thought!

[nescac hoops]

Question:

Which senior class was better: the Crotty/Coffin/Abba Williams group or the Olson/Walters/Hopkins group? 

Both classes won a national championship and finished 2nd when trying to repeat (although the Ephs lost at the buzzer in the finals against UW-SP while Amherst was blown out in their final game). 

The Amherst class had a third final four appearance, although they played two forgetable games in losing efforts when the they were sophmores.

I try to stay away from the "who is better?" arguements b/c I think it's too hard to argue/compare when team and players have never actually played against each other. When it concerns, the Amherst '08 class and the Williams '04 class, I think this is particularly tough for the reason I have said before: I think the NESCAC was better when Crotty/Abba/Coffin played. I think there is more parody in the league recently where Amherst was the favorite but 2nd-8th place was quite even but as I've said before, watching Amherst/Trinity/Williams play each other during the Crotty/Abba/Coffin years was like watching mid-major D1 teams go at it - I will remind you that Williams beat a mid-major (Holy Cross) for those of you that don't believe me. I can't really say the same, save for Amherst at times, for the NESCAC now. My issue with Amherst fans arguing that Walters/Hopkins/Olson/Jones were better than Crotty/Abba/Coffin for the sake of an overall 4 year record of 112-11 and an additional final 4 appearance is the following: aside from both Crotty and Olson, none of the other players were real contributers/starters/etc. until their junior seasons. Why do players like Hopkins, Jones, Walters get "credit" and deemed "better" for arriving on campus to players like Bedford, Schiel, etc. who brought them to the final 4 and accumulated great record over the Amherst class of '08's first two seasons, while aside from Olson, none of them were real contributers. Crotty/Abba/Coffin arrived their freshman to have their coach "retire" to AD and Williams adjusted to the first new coach (Paulsen) in 20+ years. When you look at the results/stats/etc. of all these guys as a whole from when they were the main contributers/starters when they were actaully playing (their junior season aside from Olson/Crotty) the stats are as follows:

Amherst '08: one national championship (jr. year), one national runner up (sr. season - lost in a blowout), 2 POY awards, loss at a D2 school (florida memorial), 5 losses to 5 different teams

Williams '04: one national championship (jr. year), one national runner up (sr. season - lost on a final second shot), 2 NESCAC championships, 1 POY award, victory at a D1 school (holy cross), 3 losses (2 AT Amherst and 1 on a last second turn around in the NCAA championship game)

I would be OK with saying that Amherst '08 enjoyed more success over their four years (2 of which they weren't really responisble for) than Williams '04, but to say that they are more talented/better would be very hard.

[frank uible]

Of course Ditka is better than either.

[fpc85]

Question:

Which senior class was better: the Crotty/Coffin/Abba Williams group or the Olson/Walters/Hopkins group? 

Both classes won a national championship and finished 2nd when trying to repeat (although the Ephs lost at the buzzer in the finals against UW-SP while Amherst was blown out in their final game). 

The Amherst class had a third final four appearance, although they played two forgetable games in losing efforts when the they were sophmores.

Why do players like Hopkins, Jones, Walters get "credit" and deemed "better" for arriving on campus to players like Bedford, Schiel, etc. who brought them to the final 4 and accumulated great record over the Amherst class of '08's first two seasons, while aside from Olson, none of them were real contributers.
I would be OK with saying that Amherst '08 enjoyed more success over their four years (2 of which they weren't really responisble for) than Williams '04, but to say that they are more talented/better would be very hard.

nh, the situations were different. the the '04 ephs had less talent in front of them and got an opportunity to play earlier. plus paulsen may have wanted to inculcate the younger players with his system of play. i agree, the conf. was stronger then. i agree that the '08 jeffs may have had more success. crotty and coffin were very good players. olson in my opinion is better than crotty but i am sure if you asked 100 fans who watched both you may get a 50/50 split. coffin had a better career than any of the jeff bigs..no arguments here. abba and whoever else in the '04 eph class are not more talented than the jeff players who did not begin to contribute until their jr year. i am sure most would agree that goldsmith/hopkins/walters/jones is more talented than any combination that includes coffin/abba and whoever else not named crotty.

in a nutshell, i think the overall talent is better on the '08 jeffs. it would have been fun to watch a game that featured all of the players. the jeffs get coffin in foul trouble and win going away .