MBB: American Southwest Conference

[Pat Coleman]

In fact, I'm still trying to reconcile that game with the results since. Puzzling ...

[Titan Q]

What an exciting year to be an ASC fan.  On one side, you have National Power MC (having a phenomanal season), UT-Dallas (a team that could probably beat anyone in the Nation) LETU (boasts solid wins against UMHB and HSU, played McM tough) and on the other side your have three dangerous teams that just continue to beat up each other in McM, UMHB and HSU.  I am excited to see how things turn out the rest of the way. 

One question I do have for anyone out there?  How does our conference compare top to bottom with other conferences in the Nation.  I mean looking at what I think to be our top tier teams, MC, McM, UTD, UMHB, HSU, I feel we could have one of the toughest conferences in the nation.  Anyone elses thoughts?

Bearkat00,
   The best conference is the CCIW (College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin). They have four Top 25 teams right now in Carthage, Wheaton, Augustana and Elmhurst and others are receiving votes. They also have three Final Four appearances since 2000. The WIAC (Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference) has three Top 25 teams right now led by UW-Stevens Point who is #1 and won the 2004 and 2005 national championship. UW-Platteville won it in 1998 and 1999.
   After those conferences you probably have the ODAC (Old Dominion Athletic Conference) which is Virginia Wesleyan, Hampden-Sydney and Randolph-Macon. I think all of those three have reached Final Fours and Wesleyan won the whole thing last year. They are down a bit this year though with just one Top 25 team and Guilford receiving votes.
   After those league's, it is more open though there are a couple others like the MIAA with Hope and Calvin but they seem to be down this year also. The ASC is closing the gap on those league's and this season could get us that much closer. We need to get two teams in the tourney, get the opportunity to host some games and maybe a sectional and then win. Wins in the NCAA Tournament is the only way we can get the ASC name up there with those other leagues.

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

Chris, also don't forget about the OAC and NJAC when discussing great leagues. 

Massey has the conferences rated...

1. CCIW
2. UAA
3. WIAC
4. OAC
5. HCAC

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1

[gccfan]

In fact, I'm still trying to reconcile that game with the results since. Puzzling ...

The only thing I can think of is that HPU obviously played well and we didn't have our best guard at the game, Dewones Smith.  Even with him there I don't think it would have made a difference the way that game went.

[dballa]

HPU has been too inconsistent this year.  They don't have a lot of depth and that kills them late in the 1st and 2nd half.  If you look at a lot of their games this year they've had leads in the 2nd half and have lost it down the stretch. 

In that LETU game LETU shot 2-22 from the 3 point line.  They shot themselves out of the game.  That's what HPU has done in the past couple games.  They shouldn't have lost to La College but they shot horrible from the 3 point line.  Against MC they put forth their best effort but MC has so much depth HPU just couldn't keep up.  They cut the lead down to 3 late in the game but making that late run wore them down and MC just subbed back in a fresh 5 and took care of the rest of the game.

[David Collinge]

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

The WIAC presently has 3 teams in the top 20.  The WIAC has had 6 of its 9 teams in the voting seven times, including twice this season, and has had seven teams receive votes in four separate polls.  http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=228  Two of the last three national champions came from the WIAC, as did four of the last nine and 7 of the last 18. 

At any given moment, there may be a stronger conference, but over the long haul, IMHO nobody can touch the WIAC in D3 men's hoops.

[gccfan]

Nice info on the dailydose... I think I would concur that WIAC and CCIW would year in and year out be my top two conferences.

[golden_dome]

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

Chris, also don't forget about the OAC and NJAC when discussing great leagues. 

Massey has the conferences rated...

1. CCIW
2. UAA
3. WIAC
4. OAC
5. HCAC

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1

Sorry, should not have forgotten about the UAA. I noticed the league has two out of conference wins over Illinois Wesleyan and a win over Wheaton. Also wins over Depauw and Maryville (TN).

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

The WIAC presently has 3 teams in the top 20.  The WIAC has had 6 of its 9 teams in the voting seven times, including twice this season, and has had seven teams receive votes in four separate polls.  http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=228  Two of the last three national champions came from the WIAC, as did four of the last nine and 7 of the last 18. 

At any given moment, there may be a stronger conference, but over the long haul, IMHO nobody can touch the WIAC in D3 men's hoops.

David,
    Hard to argue with four national titles since 1998. Question though, does the WIAC not venture out of conference much? Just browsing at the schedules I didn't see a lot of big out of conference wins other than Stevens Point's win over Augustana.

[Titan Q]

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

The WIAC presently has 3 teams in the top 20.  The WIAC has had 6 of its 9 teams in the voting seven times, including twice this season, and has had seven teams receive votes in four separate polls.  http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=228  Two of the last three national champions came from the WIAC, as did four of the last nine and 7 of the last 18. 

At any given moment, there may be a stronger conference, but over the long haul, IMHO nobody can touch the WIAC in D3 men's hoops.

No question about the past -- the WIAC has been the best D3 league.  I think we may be seeing the WIAC come back to the pack, however. I believe the CCIW's top four teams last year (IWU, North Central, Augustana, Elmhurst) were all better than the WIAC's champion (UW-Whitewater) and from the non-conference results this year, it seems to me the CCIW is stronger again.

I think we are now seeing the impact of the redshirting rule on the WIAC.  It will take more time (years) to determine if I am right, but redshirting was such a tremendous advantage to the WIAC that it only makes sense that the impact is visible.

[diehardfan]

There are two conference that have 6 teams receiving votes in the latest poll:

- CCIW (#14 Elmhurst,  #15 Augustana, #18 Carthage, #21 Wheaton, North Central, Illinois Wesleyan)

- UAA (#16 Wash U, #24 NYU, Brandeis, Rochester, Chicago Carnegie Mellon)

Both leagues have just 8 teams, so 6 is really something.

The WIAC presently has 3 teams in the top 20.  The WIAC has had 6 of its 9 teams in the voting seven times, including twice this season, and has had seven teams receive votes in four separate polls.  http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=228  Two of the last three national champions came from the WIAC, as did four of the last nine and 7 of the last 18. 

At any given moment, there may be a stronger conference, but over the long haul, IMHO nobody can touch the WIAC in D3 men's hoops.

No question about the past -- the WIAC has been the best D3 league.  I think we may be seeing the WIAC come back to the pack, however. I believe the CCIW's top four teams last year (IWU, North Central, Augustana, Elmhurst) were all better than the WIAC's champion (UW-Whitewater) and from the non-conference results this year, it seems to me the CCIW is stronger again.

I think we are now seeing the impact of the redshirting rule on the WIAC.  It will take more time (years) to determine if I am right, but redshirting was such a tremendous advantage to the WIAC that it only makes sense that the impact is visible.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. A few years back I was at a Whitewater-Oshkosh conference playoff game and got into it with the Oshkosh guy I was sitting with about which of our leagues was better. Since he was a media guy of some sort, he turned to the WIAC commish who was sitting nearby, and brought him into the conversation. Despite the 2-1 odds, I, being naively fearless, commented that things between our two leagues would be much closer if it wasn't for the redshirt rule. The WIAC commish proceeded to tell me a percentage of players that redshirted around the league... it seemed like a very high number to me (coming from a league that doesn't have that rule), but he actually mentioned the redshirt numbers because he perceived it to be low!

Since the rule ended, I have been watching the way things have progressed with great interest. Beginning with the playoff results last year, and continuing with the results you posted about the CCIW results against the WIAC this year on the interconference board Q, it's become quite clear to me that the playing field is leveling. While I certainly think the WIAC will always be an elite conference, I do think it will be easier for other leagues to compete with them. This is certainly one of the cases where the NCAA got it right! Now if they would just limit roster sizes in football to something reasonable....

[Titan Q]

First of all, thanks to all the good ASC folks for allowing us to have this conversation here.

April, here is how I look at the redshirting thing...

In 2002-03, Illinois Wesleyan had a very talented freshman class, but only one player made the varsity rotation (point-guard Adam Dauksas).  The rest all played on IWU's JV team that year.  This cast included Keelan Amelianovich (a future 1st Team All-American) and 6 other members of the rotation that led IWU to the Final Four last year.

Let's say IWU redshirted 6-6 wing Keelan Amelianovich, 6-6 post Cory Jones, and 6-6 post Chris Jones, as a WIAC school could have before the rule change (and did with regularity) because of cost factors that made it possible...whereas it wasn't remotely possible at a private school.  Would IWU's team this year be better with those three on it?  We don't even have to answer that. 

WIAC teams used to be loaded with dominant 5th year seniors and that had a big impact.  Again, would you rather have Keelan Amelianovich, the timid freshman JV player or 1st Team All-American/5th year senior Keelan Amelianovich?

[Bearkat00]

Wow - I've enjoyed this big ball of wax I've started.  It's fun to get different perspectives from all around the country.  It's fun to see how it started from just finding out how the ASC compared to other conferences around the country, to redshirting! 

I think my main question is how would an MC, McM, HSU and UTD fair in another conference?  Whenever I watch MC play, I see them as a serious National Title Contender b/c they have everything it takes to be on top.  UMHB beat Virigina Wesleyan, a #3 team in the country.  UT-Dallas beat a D1 school, mind you a small D1 school, but still went on the road and won.  Us LETU fans know that it's hard enough to win on the road, let alone against a D1 one opponent, who they next night went to Austin to take on the Longhorns and played them tough. 

I guess this is almost a losing battle, b/c I don't feel that we can truely rank teams and feel good about it, without seeing games that pit other conferences from around the nation against one another.  It was good to see Virgina Wesleyan come to Texas and play two quality opponents, to see MC go on the road and beat John Hopkins.  Oh well, what do I know.  I hope my point makes sense.......

[Ralph Turner]

Titan Q, diehardfan and David, thanks for conducting the discussion in our house for our ASC fans to read.

The CCIW is the best message board on D3hoops and fans can learn a lot of basketball there.

Goos observation on the redshirting, Titan Q and dhf!

We really did not have much redshirting in the ASC.  What we do see is the large numbers of players who come out the Jucos or come to D3 from a scholarhsip program for a multitude of reasons.

[Titan Q]

Quotes from the 2001-02 UW-Stevens Point preview:


"Bennett expects DeVos, Kadima and Nolting will battle for time in the backcourt, along with his son, Nick, a redshirt freshman."

-----

"The point guard position features Krajnik, sophomore B.J. Christensen and redshirt freshman Tamaris Relerford."


http://d3hoops.com/previews/02/westmen.htm


The starting backcourt for the 2005 national champs would have been one year out of school in most D3 leagues.  Nick Bennett, of course, was a 1st Team All-American as a 5th year senior...as a true freshman he probably would have been a 9th man.  Big difference.

http://www.uwsp.edu/athletics/mbb/04-05/teamcume.htm#TEAM.IND

[Bearkat00]

I don't think that there's an arguement for redshirting players.  The big deal for a University like LETU is that it is very expensive to attend, like most of the Universities that you guys represent, therefore keeping a player here for four years alone is a challenge, let alone 5 years. 

That is the biggest difference that LETU has experience this year, is the fact that we returned 60% of our starting line-up from last year's team.  Coach Davis was able to build around them.  Normally, you will see new faces on the team every year and there is no consistancy in the line-up.

My point is, while I agree that redshirting certain players can be extremely beneficial, I understand why we don't do it.  Ethically, I can not ask a kid to stay at my University for a 5th year to play a sport that he won't be making a living at, coming up with  $25,000 more to play on top of $75,000 debt that he already has.  I realize that this can go both ways, and I am not attacking anyone, just thought I'd give an opinion through our eyes. 

On a lighter note, UTD - MC.  Any thoughts?  UTD has a lot to prove after last weekends debacle!

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, let's follow this line of thinking...

1)  MC had a great experience last year, and I think that they are back where they need to be.  This is not to disparage Coach Lofton...

(My high school teammate was Ray(mond) Rhodes of Green Bay/Philly Iggles fame and formerly Mike Holmgren's defensive co-ordinator.  I have the greatest respect for Raymond, but I think that his greatest contribution to his professional football teams was as a defensive coordinator.  In a team game where one must use one's talents ultimately to what the team needs, I think that Raymond was most successful in his role as defensive co-ordinator.)

...Likewise, I think that MC has the Jones-Lofton team going again, and they will be formidable.

2)  Those players remember what happened in the Sweet 16.  I think that you have such a core of players from that experience that they will not make those mistakes again.

3)  They have whipped themsleves into shape since the Wesley MI game.  They are a mature team that is intent on winning.  I can see great things out of this team.  The experience of last year, and the desire not to fail is driving them hard.