MBB: American Southwest Conference

[t_money]

MC played a great game, jumping out on Oxy pretty quick. I will say, however, that MC let up a little bit. The Chocs held em to 18 in the first half, but they then allowed 50 in the second. We now take on Maryville tomorrow, and if (I mean when) we win it'll be us against the VWC bracket winner.

Still not exactly sure how DJ beat out Tim for the East POY because Tim is a heck of a player while DJ tends to create alot of turnovers.

Hudson had a great night again. As did Marcus.

I was not impressed with the Oxy played. I just imagined that a team that is considered good enough to be in the NCAA tourney would put on a better show than that.

GO CHOCS!!!

Chocsrock34,

I do agree with you that MC did let up a little in the second half but they only gave up 33 in the second half, not 50.  They will be ready for tonite.

Go Chocs!

[Ralph Turner]

Y'all need to thank Ralph Turner every time one of my photos of MC or any other ASC school runs on the site.

Thank you, Pat, for traveling D3nation!

Pat, in the last 3 years, how many of the 800 men's and women's D3 teams have you seen in person or on video stream?

I don't count teams I've seen on video. My list also only includes teams I've ever seen, not broken down by year. I understand that seeing Elmira play in 1993 isn't very relevant to 2006 but I don't think seeing all 800 teams every three years is a reasonable goal.

By my count, 125 men's teams and 74 women's teams, though I only started listing recently and I occasionally find teams I've missed.

My thoughts are that the quantity and quantity of teams that you have seen over the last 3 years only add to the credibility of your position when discussing a team.  You were appropriately "close to the vest" on HPU this year.  I am certain that you had a very good framework by which to evaluate their run.

Elmira in 1993 is not necessarily relevant, but the quality of basketball of the Elmira team in 1993, regardless of how good or how bad, allows you the judgment as to what type of success that Elmira in 2008 may have.  Quality teams over the years do the same things and usually have the same characteristics.

I appreciate your getting out to see the teams.  Thanks!

[Ralph Turner]

I was not impressed with the Oxy played. I just imagined that a team that is considered good enough to be in the NCAA tourney would put on a better show than that.

Chocs, Oxy's best player, Sam Betty did not suit up.  The comparable analogy would be if Tim Broomfield and DJ Jones and Tyler Winford, all three, were out with injuries.  I think that Betty meant that much to their team.

If that is the case, the karma got UMHB.  UMHB got the harder non-ASC team in the first round!

[balls a dunkin]

I was not impressed with the Oxy played. I just imagined that a team that is considered good enough to be in the NCAA tourney would put on a better show than that.

Chocs, Oxy's best player, Sam Betty did not suit up.  The comparable analogy would be if Tim Broomfield and DJ Jones and Tyler Winford, all three, were out with injuries.  I think that Betty meant that much to their team.

If that is the case, the karma got UMHB.  UMHB got the harder non-ASC team in the first round!

Ralph,
    have you lost your mind.  I am sure that Betty is a great player,  but to say that he equals those three is ludicris.  There is no way that one player would have made up that difference last night.  The Chocs  only played 20 min of good basketball last night and still won pretty easy. 
   Have you seen MC play in person this year?  If you haven't, you need to before you make a statement like that.  A stat sheet or on internet feed doesn't give them any justice.

[diehardfan]

As someone who is a neutral fan (I'm a Wheaton College IL fan), and has seen Occidental play numerous times this season, I'd like to weigh in on this discussion.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that NO player could hold up to being as important to a team as three players on a high caliber playoff team!!! However, Ralph does make some very valid points in the midst of his hyperbole. I'm pretty sure he wasn't dissing MC... the point is that the Oxy Tigers relied as much on Betty as Miss College relies on all three of those guys for points and leadership... does that make sense? You have the luxury of being a much more balanced team.

Sam Betty is basically THE inside scoring threat on his team... the Oxy Tigers really don't have anyone else inside at all. While Oxy is a very good team that I thought could win 1, 2, maybe 3 games this year in the post season, they are not, by any vague stretch of the imagination a deep team. Betty posted 18.6PPG and 7.2RPG this season... given the number of higher than DIII opponents they played in their non-conference season, that's pretty impressive. Betty also, IMHO played slightly better than Isaac Rosefelt in the first half of Oxy's season opener against St. Thomas. Isaac definitely came back and made a big statement in the second half, becoming basically unstoppable, but IMHO Betty is one of the best big guys in the league this year.

Connor Whitman, Oxy's top guard and #2 scoring threat at (17.6PPG, .457FG%, 480 3PT%) he only gets as many good looks as he did all season to do so well because the opposing teams have to focus so much on containing Betty. Don't get me wrong, he's a very good player, and makes the most of what he gets, but with Betty out, he's not going to get nearly as many opportunities. You know how you go to a game involving a team you've never seen before, and you don't know anyone on the opposing team, but someone catches your eye? Betty did that for me immediately as a Jr last year. He was a preseason AA and that's not in error. It took at least three games of watching Oxy to even notice Connor was there compared to the guards I saw him match up against (though to be fair to Connor, they were Redland's Amir Mazarei, and St. Thomas's Bryan Schnettler, both of whom I think should be AA candidates). With Betty out last night, Whitman's game was positively a whisper.... I mean, three points? Are you kidding me? it went from having to contain two very good guys who play on completely different parts of the court to only having to contain the outside game... much easier defensive strategy to enact. I have no doubt that Miss College is a strong defensive team, but there was definitely domino effect going on there.

The talent drops off pretty considerably after those two, and it's evident when you look at their season stats: http://departments.oxy.edu/athletics/basketball-men/stats_06_07.htm. Guys like Zebb, McBride, Mills, Kostic, are basically solid, well coached players that can make clutch plays in big games.... but when it comes down to it, they're role players, not stars. You can't win a game when over 85-90% of the guys you playing are basically role players. IMHO, you need at least two "go to" guys.

When Betty went down against Redlands in a game that ended up deciding the SCIAC champion (if Redlands had one, it would have been a tie and they would have played a tiebreaker game), his team held on... but Redlands is undersized, and a system team that relys heavily on the outside shot, so that was possible against a soild squad. When they played Whittier (3-11 in the SCIAC) a few days later, they took two overtimes to beat them without Betty... despite the fact that they had beaten them by 22 earlier in the season!

With all that said, I'm 100% sure that Oxy would have given Mississippi College a game if they had had Betty. Would it have changed the outcome? Well, I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.

[mattgrubb]

Go Scots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[golden_dome]

With all that said, I'm 100% sure that Oxy would have given Mississippi College a game if they had had Betty. Would it have changed the outcome? Well, I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.

With all due respect to Occidentall, the score was 42-18 at halftime. Oxy has a great program and looking at the stats Betty is vitally important to their success, but it is not a given that he would have put up the same numbers against a very good MC frontline, let's give a little bit of credit to MC.

The reason Whitman struggled was because of D. J. Jones, not the absence of Betty. Jones has held the last three top-flight guards (Connor Whitman, Joel McDonald, Martin Salinas) he has faced to 11-40 shooting. Kevin Guyden (UMHB) was 1-8 against him earlier this year for a season low four points and I know that guy is good. MC would have guarded Whitman the same way regardless and probably match up with Betty better than most teams.

Again, no disrespect to Occidental who had a great year and it is very unfortunate Betty was not able to play, but MC deserves just a bit of credit here. They lead the nation in defense for a reason. I know what Ralph meant by his comment, just stressing how important he is to that particular team, but it is a bad analogy. It doesn't matter how good he is, I feel comfortable saying it is not equal to the top two players in the ASC this year and a two-time preseason all-american.

Onto another subject, the game tonight against Maryville should be a great one. They were impressive in beating a UMHB team that had a great season. For the third straight season, MS College and Maryville will play to see who goes to a sectional.

[diehardfan]

I hope you didn't take my post to be not giving Mississippi College credit. Although it was a tough pick for me, I did pick Mississippi College in this game... and that was before I knew Betty was injured. What I was saying is it is not anywhere near 100% clearcut that you guys would have won the way that "balls a dunkin" was suggesting to Ralph in the post that I quoted.

When I said:

With all that said, I'm 100% sure that Oxy would have given Mississippi College a game if they had had Betty. Would it have changed the outcome? Well, I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.

it was meant to be more more epistemological than anything else. 

And for what it's worth, in their toughest game of the year pre-playoffs,
http://departments.oxy.edu/athletics/basketball-men/results/06_07/St.%20Thomas_11%2017%2006.htm shows that Betty put up 20 pts against St. Thomas's Isaac Rosefelt.

[t_money]

Ralph is just mad because once again March has rolled around and McMurry only has next year to look forward to.  He wants the Choctaws to lose so bad its pathetic.

Come on Ralph, be honest.  You say you are cheering for the ASC but that is only if the team playing does not include MC.

Does it kill you to give MC some credit?


Mattgrub,

No way Maryville beats MC in Clinton.  But keep cheering, it is amusing.

Go Chocs

[chocsrock34]

t, I agree with you Maryville could bring in the best team they can but it just won't be enough to beat our Chocs, especially when the crowd gets into the game. Last night we had more students attend than ever before this season, and I don't expect much less from 'em tonite. And just rememberCHOCS ROCK

[golden_dome]

I hope you didn't take my post to be not giving Mississippi College credit. Although it was a tough pick for me, I did pick Mississippi College in this game... and that was before I knew Betty was injured. What I was saying is it is not anywhere near 100% clearcut that you guys would have won the way that "balls a dunkin" was suggesting to Ralph in the post that I quoted.

When I said:

With all that said, I'm 100% sure that Oxy would have given Mississippi College a game if they had had Betty. Would it have changed the outcome? Well, I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.

it was meant to be more more epistemological than anything else. 

And for what it's worth, in their toughest game of the year pre-playoffs,
http://departments.oxy.edu/athletics/basketball-men/results/06_07/St.%20Thomas_11%2017%2006.htm shows that Betty put up 20 pts against St. Thomas's Isaac Rosefelt.

I don't have anything negative to say about Occidental or Sam Betty. I am sure he is a great player and I would have liked to see him play. MC has the luxury of not relying on any one particular player, but there are several players on the team who are in that same class, they are just not asked to put up those kind of numbers. The leading scorer for MC the last 9 games is actually 6'8" forward Ryan Hudson.

Hopefully that depth will show tonight when they play a really good Maryville team who is also capable of making a run in this year's tournament.

[NCChoctaw]

Does Maryville have any hurt players they can use to console themselves after a Clinton loss?

[diehardfan]

Does Maryville have any hurt players they can use to console themselves after a Clinton loss?

LOL... nice. I don't see any Oxy fans consoling themselves. Need I highlight this part of my post to you....

(I'm a Wheaton College IL fan)

we didn't even get to the playoffs. We didn't have an injured player to use an excuse either!!! 

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph is just mad because once again March has rolled around and McMurry only has next year to look forward to.  He wants the Choctaws to lose so bad its pathetic.

Come on Ralph, be honest.  You say you are cheering for the ASC but that is only if the team playing does not include MC.

Does it kill you to give MC some credit?


Mattgrub,

No way Maryville beats MC in Clinton.  But keep cheering, it is amusing.

Go Chocs

Wow, I got you guys to thinking!   

Let me review the points that were contained in that previous post.

What does Broomfield provide?  An incredible inside presence who can take big men outside when he hits the "3".  Betty is strong inside.

What does Jones provide?  An incredible outside presence that is set up by numerous Choctaw players.  But the comparable arrangement in the Oxy offense is a strong Sam Betty inside who sets up the outside game.

What does Winford provide?  IMHO, I perceive that he provides the maturity and stability on the court and to the team that allows an incredibly talented team to excel.  I see that Sam Betty was that for Oxy.

Those 3 players make up one-quarter of a very well-balanced team.  Betty was that for Oxy.  Not having Betty had a tremendous impact on Oxy.  I saw the videostream of the second half and that Betty-less Oxy team would have done well to finish in the top half of the ASC-West.  What that also showed me is that we have had very, very, very few post players in the ASC to take us to the Elite 8.  McM's Kim Maina may be the last one, and he wasn't the complete package.  Mardochee Jean is one who can, but he didn't have enough help all season.  Tommy Stolhandske could not do it by himself.  Chris Brooks makes my point about the depth and breadth of the Choctaws this year.  They seem to be 11-12 deep.

I came off with a tremendous respect for the Murvul inside players.  We know Burgart's abilities.  But Murvul beat the Cru very soundly.

As for my loyalties in the post-season, I am all ASC now.  I have heard or seen 14 of the 17 ASC post season games, (missing 2004 SRSU wins over UDallas and Trinity and missing the 2005 MC win over Murvul).

t money, that is very presumptuous of you.  My pick' em bracket has Miss College over Wooster  and 116 total points in the Championship.  (60-56 sounds like a Choctaw score, doesn't it.) 

We still need to get to the Final Four.  I like our going around the Great Lakes this year, altho' they seem weak.  The ODAC looks strong and we can see how JHU does tonight.  If we get to the Final Four, it will be thru the Mid-Atlantic, which I believe is the easist route available to us.  (We don't get to play in the bracket in New England.    )

[NCChoctaw]

Lest I be de-Karmatized again, the last comment was merely a joke.  In all sincerity, I applaud those willing to call out the comments about Beatty.  I am sure he is a great player, but enough is enough.  MC played one half of great basketball, and one half of mediocre basketball, and won the game on a good effort, not the misfortune of an opponent.  They've done it 26 (?) times this year, and to say the last one was due to anything other than being a great basketball team is demeaning to the hard work of that group of young men.  Tonight should be a great game, and I'll go in expecting the same result as last night.  Go Choctaws (again, a reminder, "Chocs" is not an acceptable substitute for Choctaws, per the Choctaw tribe of Mississippi)