MBB: American Southwest Conference

[Ralph Turner]

Good afternoon, Chris!

This is my first chance to sit at the computer.  I am happy that Pat has already contributed to this discussion.

Lincoln and Catholic will each argue your anointing of Johns Hopkins as the best team in the Mid-Atlantic region. Alvernia might have an argument as well.

But the ASC needs to aim higher than beating the No. 3 team from the No. 6 region. And with the conference's runner-up gifted a favorable matchup in the first round, it needs to come through.

I am glad to hear his assessment of the Mid-Atlantic Region...6th strongest Region.

I've seen good teams get manhandled in the Sweet 16 before. I also remember telling people after I saw MC in person in November that I could comfortably see Mississippi College as high as No. 13.

Although they did climb much higher, that number seems fairly reasonable now as well.

#13 means that Miss College deserves to be in the Sweet 16, just not close enough to break thru to the Elite 8, yet.

Pat,
   I see you didn't bother to mention UMHB's win over the defending national champions, I would probably consider that to be higher than beating the no. 3 team from the no. 6 region. Unlike other conferences, you seem to wipe out all positives about the ASC with one bad game.


Chris, I am hearing Pat Coleman saying that beating VWC once 1500 miles from home is good, but UMHB's losing on a friendly neutral court to a Maryville TN team that he probably anticipated it should have defeated neutralized that VWC win.

Would you say you overhyped the CCIW all season and the NCAA got it right by putting one CCIW team in the tournament due to their opening round loss at HOME to Carroll who came from a Midwest Conference league you said was weak?  If the only thing that matters is performance in the NCAA Tournament then that would seem like reasonable logic.

I would not say that Pat overhyped the CCIW.  I think that everyone on the national level, who have seen the CCIW teams on numerous occasions in the Final Four, were waiting for a CCIW team to put it together, the same chance to put it together that Miss College was getting with its rankings thru out the year.  I don't necessarily think that it was Pat who was voting JHU as highly as they were being voted.  I think that the Mid-Atlantic Region is riding a historical wave of good feeling.  Catholic was the National Champion in 2001.  Lincoln was extemely competitive.  IMHO, JHU was just floating along.

I know everyone is using MC's terrible loss to VWC as ammunition right now but there is no way MC is 26 points worse, nowhere near. Everything went wrong for the Choctaws and VWC shot the ball like they haven't all season. Even the VWC fans are saying that was by far their best performance of the season and I give them credit for that. But it was also MC's worst game which I know VWC had a lot to do with. But there is no way you or anyone else can say they know how that game turns out if it is played at MC.

Not that it matters, but coaches conceded the win down 19 with between two and three minutes remaining. VWC scored the last seven points. If it is a 15 point loss does that make it better. I don't think it matters and I am sure coaches didn't either.

Even a 15-point loss is not making a case for our standard-bearer to break thru to the next echelon.

As for Johns Hopkins, I was actually using your poll which had them as the top Middle Atlantic team all year and also the top team entering the tournament. If you are ready to completely discredit that then go ahead. I was responding to a post that said the ASC did nothing against out of region teams this year which was incorrect. I don't remember anything in my post saying that was the pinnacle of our ambition.

In the last nine years, the ASC has put three different teams in the Sweet Sixteen a total of seven times with one in the Elite Eight. The league has only been here a little over a decade but is making improvement. I am sure it gets old hearing our constant complaining about travel in the tourney but it is no less valid. If the conference had an opportunity to host just a few of those sectionals it is well within reason to think teams would have gone further.

I am not saying the ASC right now is a dominant league in the country, but it is improving and does deserve more credit than it is given. 

The travel will always be a factor.  The style of play is one thing that we still have not figured out.  That was the thought behind my Maryville thought.

I posted earlier that Great Lakes style of play was Miss College's nemesis and I thought that going up the Mid-Atlantic seaboard was a break for us.  It wasn't.  We must be able to emulate that a style of play, or find a style that will handle the styles that we see in the Sweet 16 games where we are 1-6.

The ODAC is the best conference in the South Region.  We are number 2, and slightly ahead of the SCAC.  Maryville gets the asterisk for all of their consecutive tourney appearances from Pool B.

The Power Conferences in this decade, for whatever misnomer that may be seem to be, include the NESCAC, the ODAC, the OAC, the WIAC, the "NCAC-2", the MIAA, the CCIW, and the UAA.  They are my top quintile.

We have actually had 5 teams reach the Top 25 now, SRSU.

[Pat Coleman]

Lincoln and Catholic will each argue your anointing of Johns Hopkins as the best team in the Mid-Atlantic region. Alvernia might have an argument as well.

But the ASC needs to aim higher than beating the No. 3 team from the No. 6 region. And with the conference's runner-up gifted a favorable matchup in the first round, it needs to come through.

I've seen good teams get manhandled in the Sweet 16 before. I also remember telling people after I saw MC in person in November that I could comfortably see Mississippi College as high as No. 13.

Although they did climb much higher, that number seems fairly reasonable now as well.

Pat,
   I see you didn't bother to mention UMHB's win over the defending national champions, I would probably consider that to be higher than beating the no. 3 team from the no. 6 region. Unlike other conferences, you seem to wipe out all positives about the ASC with one bad game.

Chris,

I felt the need to debunk your inaccurate characterization of the Mid-Atlantic. Since your assessment of UMHB/VWC contained no inaccuracies, I didn't mention it.

Final results of the Mid-Atlantic region suggest otherwise, don't they? And I think at every opportunity I disagreed VERY publicly with Johns Hopkins ranking. I am very much on the record about that, even in this board. You shouldn't have to ask the question.

I do think you may be ascribing Dave McHugh's opinions to me. However -- what he said was that MC "played very disappointingly and got man-handled by Virginia Wesleyan."

I didn't read him say "the ASC is overrated" or "MC is overrated." He stated a pretty defensible position. It seems you are trying to turn that into ASC-against-the-world and I don't see where that is warranted here.

[Ralph Turner]

UT-Dallas' good fortune was to have defeated UT-Arlington before the Abilene road trip!

We need teams to scheudle aggressively around the nation.  A non-region game still exposes players to other styles of play.

[Pat Coleman]

It's gonna be hard to make a claim like that on a 26-point loss, guys. I'm sure it would've been different at home in front of 3,500 fans but Mississippi College hasn't drawn more than 1,900 all year. That's

I think if the ASC goes and wins some national titles then the injustice will draw the same attention that the CCIW and WIAC get. Until then you will definitely get my sympathy but as I said on the show last week, I'm pretty jaded about the whole darn thing. 

Pat,
  We drew 2,500 for the game against Occidental and the same last year to open the regional. I feel sure it would increase substantially to finally get a sectional.

I apologize. I was using the stats on your site. Are you prepared to completely discredit them?

[Gray Fox]

We need teams to schedule aggressively around the nation.  A non-region game still exposes players to other styles of play.

I agree, but the ASC exposure as you would like is almost nonexistent and difficult to realize with the limited number of non-ASC games available.   The same is true for the SCIAC teams who get visits by snowbird teams, but rarely travel to hostile venues in other parts of the country.  I like the style of play in the ASC,  but going to venues where the style is more aggressive and the refs are lenient make for a perfect storm against the ASC. 

[golden_dome]

I apologize. I was using the stats on your site. Are you prepared to completely discredit them?

My statkeeper forgot to add the attendance to the Occidental boxscore so I probably would completely discredit the stats. That is exactly the same thing as me using the D3hoops Poll and Regional Rankings for saying Johns Hopkins was the top Middle Atlantic team this year.

Chris,

I felt the need to debunk your inaccurate characterization of the Mid-Atlantic. Since your assessment of UMHB/VWC contained no inaccuracies, I didn't mention it.

Final results of the Mid-Atlantic region suggest otherwise, don't they? And I think at every opportunity I disagreed VERY publicly with Johns Hopkins ranking. I am very much on the record about that, even in this board. You shouldn't have to ask the question.

I hope you are not taking this the wrong way, I am not frustrated with you but with the NCAA process right now. It would be nice if our conference had the added advantage of home games but you and I know that is not gonna happen. I did read your post that the ASC has to aim higher than beating the No. 3 team from the No. 6 region as a slam and also inaccurate. If that was not the case then I apologize. Our coaches did exactly what you would like them to do by scheduling a team out of region that they thought would be among the best in the country. The UMHB win over VWC was huge and I was merely pointing out that we did have a bigger win than the Hopkins win.

Final results of the Mid-Atlantic region suggest otherwise, don't they? And I think at every opportunity I disagreed VERY publicly with Johns Hopkins ranking. I am very much on the record about that, even in this board. You shouldn't have to ask the question.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Johns Hopkins was knocked out by Guilford, a team from a stronger south region. Guilford also knocked out Lincoln. The Lincoln team I watched was better than the Hopkins team, but Hopkins had a better season. I have seen you mention several times you thought Johns Hopkins was ranked too highly. Either way, it was still a good win for our conference to have MC beat them so easily.

I do think you may be ascribing Dave McHugh's opinions to me. However -- what he said was that MC "played very disappointingly and got man-handled by Virginia Wesleyan."

I didn't read him say "the ASC is overrated" or "MC is overrated." He stated a pretty defensible position. It seems you are trying to turn that into ASC-against-the-world and I don't see where that is warranted here.

I don't disagree with Dave, I just wished he had seen us play a better game. I would have said the same thing. I am just trying to point out that one game does not make a season. In my opinion you can't say the Elite Eight are the eight best teams in the country or the Final Four the best four. No more than I though George Mason was a top four DI team when they reached the final four. In the tournament, teams are beaten by lesser teams all the time but it is a one and done format which makes it so compelling.

And for the record, I don't think the CCIW is overrated but using them as an example. If the only time I watched Augustana play was when they were beaten at home by Carroll I probably would have thought they were also overrated, but I can use their entire season to know they are a better team than that. The same can be said for MC who had a great season and still only lost twice to DIII teams all year in a league that is not a pushover.

You are probably right though, I might be too sensitive regarding the ASC. But I will defend it when I think it is necessary. I don't think you would agree with this, but in my opinion MC would have certainly been capable of reaching the last two Final Fours if we had played at home all the way to Salem, just like 5 of the 8 Final Four teams the last two years.

[Ralph Turner]

We need teams to schedule aggressively around the nation.  A non-region game still exposes players to other styles of play.

I agree, but the ASC exposure as you would like is almost nonexistent and difficult to realize with the limited number of non-ASC games available.   The same is true for the SCIAC teams who get visits by snowbird teams, but rarely travel to hostile venues in other parts of the country.  I like the style of play in the ASC,  but going to venues where the style is more aggressive and the refs are lenient make for a perfect storm against the ASC. 

Great point, Gray Fox! Let's repeat that more boldly and louder! +1!

[golden_dome]

We need teams to schedule aggressively around the nation.  A non-region game still exposes players to other styles of play.

I agree, but the ASC exposure as you would like is almost nonexistent and difficult to realize with the limited number of non-ASC games available.   The same is true for the SCIAC teams who get visits by snowbird teams, but rarely travel to hostile venues in other parts of the country.  I like the style of play in the ASC,  but going to venues where the style is more aggressive and the refs are lenient make for a perfect storm against the ASC. 

I agree completely with the ASC struggling with style of play which is why I put so much emphasis on getting home games in the tournament. As someone who has seen MC beaten by more physical teams in the tournament, I can see how Virginia Wesleyan won it last year because they play a very similiar style. They have Adair down low and their guards play very physical on defense despite being undersized.

A perfect example, VWC's 6'0" guards consistently knocked MC's 6'8" guard Timothy Broomfield 5-10 feet off the block by getting underneath him and walking him out. I doubt that happens at an ASC venue because refs don't let you push players off the block after they get position. It makes a huge difference in the dynamics of the game.

In year's past the physical play hurt MC more with the big guys, this year the guard play was extremely physical and the officials let the players play. Except for one odd trip midway through the second half where the officials whistled the VWC guards three times for physical play in the post, I can't remember another foul called. Not saying they were bad calls, but it is what it is. Games are called much closer in this part of the country.

[Ralph Turner]

We need teams to schedule aggressively around the nation.  A non-region game still exposes players to other styles of play.

I agree, but the ASC exposure as you would like is almost nonexistent and difficult to realize with the limited number of non-ASC games available.   The same is true for the SCIAC teams who get visits by snowbird teams, but rarely travel to hostile venues in other parts of the country.  I like the style of play in the ASC,  but going to venues where the style is more aggressive and the refs are lenient make for a perfect storm against the ASC. 

I agree completely with the ASC struggling with style of play which is why I put so much emphasis on getting home games in the tournament. As someone who has seen MC beaten by more physical teams in the tournament, I can see how Virginia Wesleyan won it last year because they play a very similiar style. They have Adair down low and their guards play very physical on defense despite being undersized.

A perfect example, VWC's 6'0" guards consistently knocked MC's 6'8" guard Timothy Broomfield 5-10 feet off the block where MC would have had a distinct advantage. I doubt that happens at an ASC venue because refs don't let you push players off the block after they get position. It makes a huge difference in the dynamics of the game.

Then you can point out that to Dave McHugh as a style that is foreign to the ASC!  That becomes huge! 

[golden_dome]

Then you can point out that to Dave McHugh as a style that is foreign to the ASC!  That becomes huge! 

Ralph,
    It was good to get a chance to meet Dave, he seems like a great guy and I was glad he asked me to work the first game with him. I don't blame him for his opinion of the game though, I thought the same thing watching the game, bit I have the luxury of having seen MC all season and did not think the 81-55 score was indicative of the game. MC was down 34-25 at the half before VWC went nuts in the second half and opened with a 15-2 run. The Choctaws had to start pressing and trapping with over ten minutes left, which is something they have not done all year, and that is how VWC ended up with 81 points.
    Don't misunderstand, physical play is not the only reason MC lost. Those guys are very hard to guard, but they wouldn't have scored 81 if MC had not started pressing. The Choctaws struggled more on the offensive end where the officials let them get banged around pretty good. To put in perspective, that was the most physical game I have seen MC play all season but there were just five combined free throws shot in the first half and nine in the first 30 minutes for both teams. 13 of the game's 22 total free throw attempts came in the final ten minutes. It's just a different brand of basketball.

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, have you ever seen McMurry try to play that physical-brand of ball?  Or push the refereeing to approach that style of permissive officiating?

[golden_dome]

Chris, have you ever seen McMurry try to play that physical-brand of ball?  Or push the refereeing to approach that style of permissive officiating?

I think McMurry is one of the more physical teams in the league and I know what you are saying. For several years there McMurry was just daring the officials to make calls. But the only difference is this, in those games the teams almost always combined to shoot 50 or more free throws.

The other night against VWC there were just 9 total free throws attempted by both teams in the first 30 minutes and the play was as physical as I have seen all season, particularly the guard play in the post where the officials pretty much let anything go.

I posted this on the top 25 board for perspective, in our conference tournament there were an average of 52 free throws taken each game. Compare that to the 22 in the Virginia Wesleyan game with 13 in the last ten minutes and you get an idea of how different it is.

I don't think our players are soft down here at all. But it is hard to quickly adjust to a very physical style when you have been conditioned all season that certain things are fouls.

[Ralph Turner]

Chris, I think that you have done more to highlight this issue than anything else we have tried.  Thanks!

[Gray Fox]

Chris, have you ever seen McMurry try to play that physical-brand of ball?  Or push the refereeing to approach that style of permissive officiating?

I don't think our players are soft down here at all. But it is hard to quickly adjust to a very physical style when you have been conditioned all season that certain things are fouls.

I think this is the heart of the problem.  A home game for the best seed would do much to eliminate the problem.  It would be almost like a proper seeding to begin with.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am not going to try and "quote" all that has been said, but let me say the following regarding Mississippi College.

I went into the game giving them a ton of respect and realizing that while I hadn't seen them, everything I was seeing, reading, and analyzing told me they were a DANGEROUS team. The game they played disappointed me. It certainly made me think twice about how good they are and the ASC, but I didn't immediately think to myself... jeez - what was the hype about? That second guess would be natural after that game and I would bet even Chris had that thought.

Now, I realize that a team can have a bad game at a bad time. I also realize that VWC is playing better this year than I think they were playing at this time last year (and I have seen them at this time both seasons). Watching MC play I was more confused and bewildered to why they couldn't have more success. I saw in their height and style of play in the first half how they could dominate teams and force teams to shoot horribly against them. I had to consider whether the travel had something to do with it, but I feel the fact it's win or go home and it is the Sweet 16... teams need to be ready to play. And I think VWC was better prepared - especially after the halftime. (Of course, MC did get at least an extra hour of rest before the game - thanks to Guilford and Lincoln ).

That being said, the comment about the guards being allowed to push MC out of the blocks is an interesting point. I knew the refs calling that game - one of them very well - and being the fact they are from the Mid-Atlantic, they are known for calling lots of ticky-tack stuff in the paint one minute and nothing the next. However, they called a rather consistent game and MC needed to adjust and didn't. I was also baffled why guys like Broomfield didn't try to go to the paint more often, especially when points were coming at a premium and outside shooting was cold.

The other thing came with MC's defense. They only allowed an average of 36% from the field this season... until Friday night. VWC shot 58% for the game and 72% in the second half. And it isn't like they were throwing up prayers that were falling... they were taking wide open shots. MC seemed confused on defense or maybe just set to stop Adair and got killed by many other players getting hot on that particular night.

Again, it was the first time I saw MC and while I was disappointed, I know what they accomplished all season and wouldn't take that one game and say they were only as good as a team like Lake Erie was who also had a great record, but certainly wasn't that good a team. That being said... I was disappointed for two reasons... they had a chance to make a statement and did the exact opposite. I was also disappointed for a conference I know is dying for some more respect and recognition. This was a great chance that slipped away.

I still stand behind my statement that I was disappointed and the fact MC got man-handled my VWC. I am not saying they are a horrible team or the ASC is bad because of it. Simply to the comment that was made... they didn't not stand strong or represent that well Friday night.