D3 vs. NAIA

[repete]

Guys .  . . facts and logic don't work with this troll.

[footballfever]

What facts did you show me except the wrong info???  VCSU BEAT Gustavus with there JV mostly playing half the time in game one.  Not Lost like was stated.  What other facts did you have?? 

When facts are posted they are ignored by your D3 bias. 
The score was 35-14 in favor of Azusa.  Azusa got killed as well in the playoffs(UMary now D2) 20-2.  The excuses like Trinity was overrated(30 game home win streak?),  they lost by more in the playoffs, etc, etc,  boo hoo  ...... lost score really isn't the issue even though it was a blowout.  With two teams ranked about the same in the two divisions. 

The only people who think D3 is even close to NAIA are D3 backers. The rest is pretty clear NAIA has more talent and plays better football overall and anyone who knows football knows that fact. By the way Carrol beats the D3 Champ Mount Union this year by 30.

[Mr. Ypsi]

fbf,

Did you happen to note one of the earliest scores of this season: NPU 23, Kentucky Wesleyan 13?  NPU has not won a game in the CCIW this MILLENIUM!

BTW, in the parallel universe I have access to, the d2, d3, and NAIA champs have a playoff.  Grand Valley beat Carrol 52-3; Carrol was doing decently against MUC until they forfeited: after Pierre Garcon grabbed his 3rd pass (253 yds, 3 TDs), they were heard muttering 'f*** this s***, we ain't gettin' beat by no 50!'  [Ah, in a single quotation I managed to malign both their athletic AND academic status!]

fbf, your rants are becoming highly predictable and very tedious.  WHAT are you doing on a d3 board?!

[wildcat11]

Some recent scores of note:

2000:  NAIA #2 Southern Oregon losses to then unranked D3 Linfield.

2002: NAIA #5 Southern Oregon losses to then top 15 D3 Linfield.

2003: NAIA #5 Southern Oregon (with 3 guys that sign NFL FA deals) lose to #7 Linfield.

2005: NAIA #7 St. Xavier loses to #2 D3 Whitwater (Whitewater has beat STX four contests in a row, while STX has been a NAIA top 25 program over the past few years).

[Pat Coleman]

Best of luck trying to introduce actual facts into the discussion.

[smedindy]

Uh, Fever. While I misread the score from the poster, the fact remains that a top NAIA program barely beat a bottom MIAC program - why would the JV play in a game that's 10-3? That makes no sense at all.


And that leads me to believe that most of the MIAC could whip 'em.

And you think this is a wrong score: http://www.d3football.com/story.php?story=6449

You also must realize that rankings are many times not the best measure of how good a team TRULY is, because rankings have a lot of biases in them. Who does the NAIA rankings, anyway?

[dutcheye]

smedindy-
I wouldn't worry too much about getting the score wrong...footballfever made an earlier post claiming that Waldorf beat Simpson 48-13 when in reality it was the other way around..Simpson won 48-13.  Not that this does anything for D3's argument....Simpson should pound Waldorf...but I just thought I would point out his hypocricy.  Two NAIA playoff teams from IA...Morningside and St. Ambrose.....both would be beaten 9 times out of 10 by the IIAC champ.  I take that back..Morningside would be beaten 9 times out of 10 and St. Ambrose would be 10 times out of 10.  They were lucky to beat an average Loaras team.

[footballfever]

My gosh please!  Morningside would beat ANY D3 team by at least 20 this year.  Who besides D3 backers think D3 is as good as NAIA? Please there isn't anything to compare NAIA is better.  You can twist and turn it anyway you like but that is a well known fact. We should be comparing D2 and NAIA that would probably be closer.   D3 Non scholarship football is the bottom of the football food chain......End of discussion

[Pat Coleman]

Perhaps you should go pat yourself on the back on D2Football.com and see what it gets you. We're not buying here.

[Mr. Ypsi]

On the other hand, he is on a record-setting pace - I don't recall anyone with double-digit numbers whose negative karma exceeded their post total!

[jasondannelly]

Since I check this board every couple of months, I thought it would be a good time to respond.

First off, I have the utmost respect for DIII football as well as DII football.  Whether we want to admit it or not, we are very much all the same. 

Small college football giving student athletes a chance to get an education and play ball for a couple more years.

I also have the utmost respect because I have to travel to DII and DIII schools in order to see many of the NAIA National Championship Trophies as well as some of the best and brightest alumns of NAIA schools.

First let me address a few issues that have been stated about the NAIA.
#1.  Quote from PC:  "Lumping all of NAIA into one little box is almost as bad as NAIA pundits saying the NCAA is all about money and not about "character." Those of us at D-III see all of the character and none of the money. "

The same arguement is very true with the NAIA.  While football teams receive money for playoff travel the rest of the oranization does not.  Meaning everyone of the NAIA schools that make it to a championship outside of football have to raise a boat load of money.

The NAIA is taking a proactive approach to Character in its sports as well as in the youth leagues surrounding its member institutions.  The NAIA has established 30 plus schools as Champions of Character Centers.  These schools make it a point to reach out to their local communities and speak to High Schools and Youth Leagues about Character issues.  It is truly a grassroots effort.  Over 150 of the NAIA's members are character institutions.

#2 Footballfevr quote: "at least the top 40-45 teams in NAIA they all offer at least 15 or more scholarships and probably more than half of those the very close to or the full 24 scholarships"

Not even close.  A common misconception about the NAIA is that their best teams offer the most money.  Not true.  An example would be Georgetown, a power in the NAIA.  Year after year, they get by on 12 scholarships.  The rest of the Top 15 schools are around 15-18 and the average NAIA school is probably 15 or less.  There are less than 5 schools that offer the full 24 count.

"I would expect a D3 BACKER to try to say D3 is as good and that scholarships don't matter"
Its actually true.  Scholarships don't matter as much as great coaching, an outstanding administration, and support from the community.  Give me 24 scholarships and no support from the admins and I'll show you a bad football team.

I'm not going to sit here and make excuses about who beat who and what teams didn't beat who.  The only arguement I have are the people saying "They beat a ranked NAIA team" or "They beat a ranked D3 team".  When you make this arguement, please include where the team finished ranked.  I keep hearing about how an unranked Linfield beat a top ranked SOU team.  Yep, and what'd SOU finish that season?  5-4 and unranked. 

#3 A question from smedindy: "If the NAIA is so much better why are there schools fleeing the NAIA to go to the NCAA?"
Honestly footballfvr gave a pretty decent answer, but I'll add a few things.  When I talked with a number of NCAA members who used to be NAIA schools they all said the exact same thing.  "Post season reimbursement and a chance for our institution to grow."  Members now in D3 said "Our school wanted to change the way we rewarded aid and gain money for post season reimbursement."

#4 Scholarship Money:  I'll be brief.  At the AFCA Coaches Convention I talked with 10 DIII coaches who used to be in the NAIA.  When I asked about the difference in scholarships they said to me, "Well they can give a football scholarship, but we still give more aid on a per player basis."

When I asked one coach if they had to count the aid by the NAIA rules (where academic is a part of countable aid) he said, "We'd probably be around 40-50 Scholarships."

Don't kill the messenger, this comes straight from several of your coaches.

I won't be checking on here for a while as I will be very busy working on my own site/business, but feel free to email me at mail@naiasports.net with any questions.

[smedindy]

I think that has a lot to do with the aid that schools give in general. The vast majority of our football players have some sort of financial aid package.  But it's all need based (except for some academic scholarships).

Still, some kids think it's a big whiz-bang deal to have a 'football scholarship' - that's why having Marian come on board in Indianapolis gives DePauw, Wabash, Franklin, etc. some concern about Indianapolis recruting, especially with the strong Catholic fooball schools in that city.

[dutcheye]

It sure is nice to here from someone on the NAIA side of things that actually knows what they are talking about.  Thank you for your insight JD.  I think, that when it comes right down to it, to compare D3 to NAIA is a lot like splitting hairs.  It is a very difficult task, and there isn't much of a point to it.  We can't really settle it on the playing field in any comprehensive way.  In reality the players on the field are the same kids on either side of the ball.  Same talent level....recruited in some cases by the same institutions....just made different choices when it came down to picking the college that fit them best.  From a football standpoint the difference between the two is very, very, marginal.

[tmerton]

A few days ago I saw a recruiting website that described the level of football competition at NAIA as being superior to D3 - somewhere between D2 and D3 was what it said I believe.  Carroll College in Montana (where Gags got his start) has won the NAIA championship 3 or 4 straight years.  How would they have done in D3?

[Ralph Turner]

tmerton, there are five pages of posts on the D3 vs. NAIA message board farther down the page.  (Actually on Page 2, as I am posting.)