D3 vs. NAIA

[tmerton]

Interesting thread; wish I'd seen it sooner.

[Knightstalker]

Regarding NAIA scholarships.  My nephew went to Houghton College an NAIA D2 school.  Houghton figured out all other financial aid he would be eligible for and then gave him an athletic scholarship for cross country and T&F to cover the rest with no cost to his family and no loans. 

He coached the Cross Country, cross country skiing and T&F programs at Paul Smiths College for one year.  PSC is most likely going to become an NAIA school because it is easier to comply with scholarship regulations at NAIA than with the NCAA.  He was part of the committee that recommended NAIA.  He is now coaching at Houghton and they are still awarding the scholarships the same way.  From what he has told me it is how most NAIA schools both D1 and D2 operate.  Almost no one at NAIA schools gets a full athletic scholarship.

He told me NAIA has looser grade standards but that most of the individual schools have tougher standards than the NCAA mandates.  At Houghton if you have NCAA minimum grades you are not competing.

[SaintNick]

BTW, in the parallel universe I have access to, the d2, d3, and NAIA champs have a playoff.  Grand Valley beat Carrol 52-3; Carrol was doing decently against MUC until they forfeited: after Pierre Garcon grabbed his 3rd pass (253 yds, 3 TDs), they were heard muttering 'f*** this s***, we ain't gettin' beat by no 50!'  [Ah, in a single quotation I managed to malign both their athletic AND academic status!]

First off, so there are no misconceptions I am an NAIA supporter and Carroll alum,and I am here because I have a little free time and there is not allot of football talk going on elsewhere. Anyway, I am sure no one really cares but Carroll College is one of the most highly regarded academic colleges in the Northwest, and possesses very high academic standards, and, while it is not always the case with successful athletic programs, this academic prowess also transfers over to the football team, they had 12 academic all-Americans and of those 12, 9 were major contributors to the team (by major, I mean starters, the most notable being Tyler Emmert), I am sure that you were just angry at ftblfever (he ruffles feathers on the NAIA board as well), but Carroll has very high academic and athletic standards. As to the NAIA v. DIII issues, it is really impossible to determine without 1 v. 1, 2. v. 2  etc. pairings, and the only situation that comes close was Eastern Oregon playing Witworth when they were both ranked #25 and both ended up unranked at the end of the season with 6-5 and 5-3 records, EO won that game by 10, but it is hardly an empirical test for gauging the two divisions. I for one think that a Carroll/Linfield match up would be a great game, but i doubt we will see it anytime soon. Well, that's my rant, thanks for indulging me.

[tmerton]

First off, so there are no misconceptions I am an NAIA supporter and Carroll alum,and I am here because I have a little free time and there is not allot of football talk going on elsewhere. Anyway, I am sure no one really cares but Carroll College is one of the most highly regarded academic colleges in the Northwest, and possesses very high academic standards, and, while it is not always the case with successful athletic programs, this academic prowess also transfers over to the football team, they had 12 academic all-Americans and of those 12, 9 were major contributors to the team (by major, I mean starters, the most notable being Tyler Emmert), I am sure that you were just angry at ftblfever (he ruffles feathers on the NAIA board as well), but Carroll has very high academic and athletic standards. As to the NAIA v. DIII issues, it is really impossible to determine without 1 v. 1, 2. v. 2  etc. pairings, and the only situation that comes close was Eastern Oregon playing Witworth when they were both ranked #25 and both ended up unranked at the end of the season with 6-5 and 5-3 records, EO won that game by 10, but it is hardly an empirical test for gauging the two divisions. I for one think that a Carroll/Linfield match up would be a great game, but i doubt we will see it anytime soon. Well, that's my rant, thanks for indulging me.

Yeah, but how's the tailgating at games???

Carroll's a fine school - the place where John Gagliaridi got his start and had an assistant coach who went on to become the Archbishop of Seattle (Raymond "Dutch" Hunthausen).  I agree it would be nice to have more interplay between NAIA and NCAA schools.

One of the main things I noted when I looked at the Carroll media guide was the number of advertisements - in the guide, around the stadium, etc.  Has a kind of minor league baseball feel to it  - not intended as a slight at all, but it does stick out at the college level. 

[SaintNick]

Carroll has some of the best (if not the best) tailgating in the NAIA it is a real community event which is why there is so much advertising, Carroll has become the crown jewel of Helena and is a prime choice for advertising.

[tmerton]

Carroll has some of the best (if not the best) tailgating in the NAIA it is a real community event which is why there is so much advertising, Carroll has become the crown jewel of Helena and is a prime choice for advertising.

My wife taught high school in Butte for a few years (way back) and has always talked about Montana with a reverence that I think you have to live in Montana to share.  (And yes, I understand the Butte is not a prime spot, certainly not Helena - which is all the more reason I think her impressions are significant.)

I'd love to see Carroll play St. John's.

[SaintNick]

I'd love to see Carroll play St. John's.

I agree and believe that any top NAIA vs. any top DIII team could be a good game, the most informative thing from last season is to look at is how the very best teams (by best I mean teams that were at least in the top 10 in the final rankings) that played cross-over games faired. D III had two very good teams play NAIA teams: Whitewater(2) and Linfield(3), if I missed any pleas correct me. The NAIA had to very good teams: Azusa(9) and St. Francis(2) and one good team: St. Xavier (7 in final ranking 9 in post season ranking).Whitewater beat St. Xavier by 14, and Linfield beat Southern Oregon 49-14. Azusa beat Willamete 36-17 and St. Francis shut out Eu Claire 35-0. The top teams in the NAIA and DIII dominated their cross-over opponents. The bottom line seems to be that the very best teams in either league would probably be very competitive with each other.

[Flea]

The head track and field coach at the local NAIA school told me he can give $2000 to as many students as he wants.  A few recieve more money, but they see it as a way to increase enrollment, and it's so expensive anyways they don't care.

[Mr. Ypsi]

BTW, in the parallel universe I have access to, the d2, d3, and NAIA champs have a playoff.  Grand Valley beat Carrol 52-3; Carrol was doing decently against MUC until they forfeited: after Pierre Garcon grabbed his 3rd pass (253 yds, 3 TDs), they were heard muttering 'f*** this s***, we ain't gettin' beat by no 50!'  [Ah, in a single quotation I managed to malign both their athletic AND academic status!]

First off, so there are no misconceptions I am an NAIA supporter and Carroll alum,and I am here because I have a little free time and there is not allot of football talk going on elsewhere. Anyway, I am sure no one really cares but Carroll College is one of the most highly regarded academic colleges in the Northwest, and possesses very high academic standards, and, while it is not always the case with successful athletic programs, this academic prowess also transfers over to the football team, they had 12 academic all-Americans and of those 12, 9 were major contributors to the team (by major, I mean starters, the most notable being Tyler Emmert), I am sure that you were just angry at ftblfever (he ruffles feathers on the NAIA board as well), but Carroll has very high academic and athletic standards. As to the NAIA v. DIII issues, it is really impossible to determine without 1 v. 1, 2. v. 2  etc. pairings, and the only situation that comes close was Eastern Oregon playing Witworth when they were both ranked #25 and both ended up unranked at the end of the season with 6-5 and 5-3 records, EO won that game by 10, but it is hardly an empirical test for gauging the two divisions. I for one think that a Carroll/Linfield match up would be a great game, but i doubt we will see it anytime soon. Well, that's my rant, thanks for indulging me.

Sorry to be so slow to get back to you - I rarely check this board.  Sorry to pick on Carroll - I'm fairly familiar with Carroll (WI) but confess I didn't even know there was a Carroll in Helena!  Now that I've looked it up, I retract all aspersions on its academics.

I wasn't angry at fbfever - he wasn't worth such a reaction.  Just trying to get his goat, and your alma mater happened to be in the crossfire - sorry!

[SaintNick]

Ypsi,
I was not offended, I just had some extra time and a little info, anyway I should have noted that you were referring to a Parallel Universe and maybe Carroll's academic standards are not that high in that universe. It will be interesting to see how the NAIA v. D3 matchups go for this coming season, but until then I am out.

[Ralph Turner]

Preliminary compilation of the D3 vs NAIA.
(Rough Draft--Corrections appreciated

Thanks to Jason Dannelly)

August
31  William Penn University  @  University of Wisconsin-Stout


September
  2  St. Olaf College  @  Valley City State University   
      Central Methodist University  @  Westminster College   
      Thiel College  @  Geneva College   
      Taylor University  @  Anderson University   
      St. Norbert College  @  Olivet Nazarene University   
      Saint Ambrose University  @  Loras
   
9    Seton Hill College  @  McDaniel   
      NC Wesleyan College  @  Southern Virginia University   
      Southwestern Assemblies of God Univ  @  Sul Ross St. Univ.   
      Martin Luther College  @  Waldorf College
   
16  Shorter College  @  LaGrange College   
      Seton Hill College  @  Wesley College   

23  UW-LaCrosse  @  Azusa Pacific University         
      Howard Payne University  @  Paul Quinn College   
      Austin College  @  Southwestern Assemblies of God Univ   
      UW-Stevens Point  @  Waldorf College
 
30  UW-Stevens Point  @  Trinity International University   
      Azusa Pacific University  @  Whitworth College   

October
14  Southern Oregon University  @  Linfield College   

November
  4  Huntingdon College  @  Southwestern Assemblies of God Univ
   
11  Southwestern Assemblies of God Univ  @  Colorado College   
      Waldorf College  @  Buena Vista University  

[Ron Boerger]

Sept
23  UW-LaCrosse  @  Azusa Pacific University         
      Howard Payne University  @  Paul Quinn College   
      Austin College  @  Southwestern Assemblies of God Univ   
      UW-Stevens Point  @  Waldorf College

What a shame this could not have been instead

UW-LC @ Howard Payne (could be a good matchup)
Austin College @ UW-SP (not much of a contest)

Oh, well.

[Ralph Turner]

Austin College probably wanted out of that game.

And I will bet that HPU may not have the funds to fly anywhere this year.  The Southern Nazarene trip is about 350 miles.  That being the case, then there are no other options in the southwest.  (Trinity's dance card was already full.)

[Bill McCabe]

With the cost of travel and the importance of wins, I can understand why these teams chose to schedule like they did.  HPU and AC will both benefit from early wins.

[Ralph Turner]

With the cost of travel and the importance of wins, I can understand why these teams chose to schedule like they did.  HPU and AC will both benefit from early wins.

But Bill they have no value towards the NCAA and post-season play.  In Pool C consideration, the best that HPU might do would be 7-1 vs. South Region teams (.875 winning percentage).  Someone else might go 8-1 or 9-1 in region and have a better in-region winning percentage.

The HSU and UMHB non-conference games will be in-region.  That can really help the conference, too.