D3 vs. NAIA

[footballfever]

The only fact I need to know is NAIA is better than D3.....   Mostly the Only people who don't want to accept that is D3 backers who didn't have enough talent or the sense to realize reality.  Go to D2 football website most will recognize NAIA as better than D3 that is for sure.  Nothing can change the D3 backers mind they think they play scholarship football even when they don't.  By the way WILDCat the (average number of scholarships in all of NAIA is around 15) and there is good amount who are "close" to the full 24+.  The top 35-40 or so offer around 18-22.   Really that is a big advantage and without a doubt the talent is better in NAIA and compares more closely with D2.

[smedindy]

If the NAIA is so much better why are there schools fleeing the NAIA to go to the NCAA?

[footballfever]

The ones leaving for D3 which is very few are schools that had little or NO scholarships and had NO chance to compete in NAIA on a national level. Those schools like Crown, Northwestern etc  are schools that are going D3 in that fall into that catagory.  They will have a level playing field in D3 and continue to play each other within a D3 conference.

Most that are going go to D2 which most (NAIA) can move to quite easliy.  No doubt NAIA has lost teams and its not as good as it once was but that doesn't take away from that fact there is plenty of quality that it is still a higher level of football than D3.

[wildcat11]

The only fact I need to know is NAIA is better than D3.....   .

Wow...you really brought me to the light with that gem.

Here's a fun fact for you fever.

In the History of the NAIA there has been 83 NAIA football titles won (NAIA-I, NAIA-II, and now just NAIA due to lack of teams to make two divisions) in the history of the NAIA.  Of those 83 titles here is where those programs are now.....

-12 of those titles belong to schools who are now I-AA
-23 of those titles belong to schools who are now D3
-35 of those titles belong to schools who are  D2
-1 by a program that no longer plays football (D2)
-12 by now current NAIA members

...now here is the funny thing about those 12 titles current NAIA members own.  The last major defection of colleges from the NAIA was in 1996 and 1997 when schools that now make up the American Southwest Conference (DIII), the Northwest Conference (DIII) and few now DII schools were in the transition from the NAIA to DII/DIII.

The NAIA title game in 1997 was played by Willamette (DIII), who had not had one scholarship dollar in their program from 1995-97 to make the transition to DIII from the NAIA, and Findlay (DII).  

After this 1997 season the 7 NAIA titles won (1998-2004) were all won by teams that are still NAIA members.  The funny thing is that the teams that still remained in the NAIA had won a whopping total of 5 NAIA tiles in the whole history of NAIA football while the now NCAA schools were still in the NAIA.

So come back to me in 10 years when the current NAIA catches up to DIII in the number of NAIA titles that reside in DIII trophy cases.

[footballfever]

That is the such a lame arguement using teams that were NAIA??? How does that show anything?? Teams that were NAIA years ago and won NAIA titles were NOT D3 teams then and had different rules, etc  when playing in NAIA.  How can you even make a statement like that and think that has anything to do with comparing NAIA and D3 football.  I don't care how many NAIA trophy they have in the case from years ago while they were NAIA teams playing under NAIA guidelines has nothing to do with how good they are in non scholarship D3. 

We are comparing D3 to NAIA and the fact is that NAIA is a higher level of football and compares more favorably with D2.

[wildcat11]

That is the such a lame arguement using teams that were NAIA??? How does that show anything??

It shows one thing....that a team playing under DIII rules (no scholarship dollars) while still in the NAIA, which Willamette did, can advance and play in the NAIA title game.

[footballfever]

Sure they didn't have scholarships! Right and I have some land on the ocean for Free. Maybe you were just one who didn't have a scholarship. 

I know a D1AA team advanced to the title game a few years back without scholarships so it could happen BUT that would be the exception to the rule type of thing.

Year in and year out teams with a good amount scholarships will beat teams without any. 

Would love to see the D3 champ get drilled by the NAIA champ but a better game would be the D2 against the NAIA champ.  Hard to get through to the D3 backers here but fact is that NAIA is a higher level of football. Sorry to say it even though I am a D3 backer myself. More D3 people need to admit where they stand in the football food chain.

[Pat Coleman]

I find it interesting that the entire argument for NAIA being better than D-III is the number of scholarships, yet that doesn't translate to D-II being better than the NAIA.

[footballfever]

Never said NAIA was better than D2. I said it is on the same level in most cases and compares favorably with D2.
NAIA does very well against D2 teams as well and in most cases NAIA has just as many scholarships as the "average" D2 team does.  NAIA also has lower academic standards for athletics which helps them to draw some very talented athletes as well that would not be eligible by NCAA standards.  The arguement was NAIA /D3 and there is not much to base to a D3 agruement for D3. NAIA is the higher level of football than D3 anyway you want to slice it.

[Pat Coleman]

Never said NAIA was better than D2.

Never said you did. You seem to have trouble reading.

NAIA also has lower academic standards for athletics which helps them to draw some very talented athletes as well that would not be eligible by NCAA standards.

Yep, but it's all about character, remember.

[C.A. Wassink]

I have coached and officiated at NAIA & NCAA D2, DIAA and D3 and have had close family members play at both NAIA and NCAA institutions.  There is no more of a level playing field within the NAIA and within D3 than there is between NAIA and D3.  There are only a handful of NAIA schools who allocate the full 24 full-ride scholarships.  Many of the NAIA conferences have their own limitations, such as 10 to 12 tuition grants per school.  This only establishes the maximum scholarship aid and many of the schools within that conference choose to award less than that, often because of financial limitations.  The "average" football scholarship is often less than $4,000.  Many NCAA D3's actually offer more attractive financial aid packages than some of the NAIA schools.  Some D3's allow red-shirting and others don't.  The NAIA actually requires uniform academic standards and D3 does not.  If a d3 admits the student, they must let him play-period!  As long he he remains academic eligible for that school, he can play.

[dutcheye]

fbfever-
I notice you never really respond to the facts that have been presented in previous messages refuting your argument that NAIA is better than D3.  At least not in an effective manner.  You simply keep stating that NAIA has a higher quality of player, based on their ability to offer athletic scholarships.  I would like to bring up the point that, just because D3 institutions cannot offer athletic scholarships, it does not mean that there are no players with scholarship talent on D3 teams. I know you never said that explicitly, and you being knowlegeable about D3 football; I'm sure you were already aware of this point.  You just chose to conveniently ignore it.  I have experience with a D3 team that has great tradition, and while I'm not sure the exact number at any one period of time, there were quite a few guys over my 4 years that turned down walk on offers at D1 schools, transferred from D1 schools after walking on, or turned down scholarship offers from lower division NCAA shools, or from NAIA schools to play D3 football.  This is not to mention guys who had no scholarship offers who, after a couple of years to develop in the weight room, turned into very good football players.  I would say the talent level accross the board is very comparable when looking at top D3 schools as compared to top NAIA schools.  While I'm not sure anyone can ever convince you of this, even when comparing results between top teams recently, I'm sure that we can both agree that each has some tremendous athletes and tremendous teams, that don't get enough credit as compared to higher levels.  Some things will never change....................................................... BTW...anyone have any thoughts about comparing D3/NAIA/D2 teams to D1AA non-scholarship.  I know D3 usually stacks up pretty well with Drake.  Yet Drake is still considered one of the "big 4" in football in the state of IA by the Des Moines Register....Nothing against Drake, but that team is nothing more than a glorified D3 team..I'd say they'd contend for the IIAC crown with Central, Wartburg, and Coe...which is great.  But do they really deserve to be mentioned in any category with Iowa, ISU, or even UNI for that matter!!! OK so maybe I'm bitter on that point....Go bulldogs!

[Maroon&Gold]

Okay here is my argument in the NAIA debate.  Are hte top few teams caoparable to and capable of beating anyone in D3?  Yes.

However, I think the real strength of D3 is the depth of quality. The depth of quality teams in NAIA is simply not there. Case in point from this year.  Valley City State, who finished ranked #22 nationally in NAIA played Gustavus (a MIAC team who finished the year 3-7) this season and beat them in Valley City  by a 10-3 score.  The top 4 teams in the MIAC all beat Gustavus by no less than 17 points.

To expand on this point.  If scholarships are hte key factor to making a strong team or league, then the NAIA should be all about depth of quality teams, because every team that gives scholarships should have an advantage over D3 teams.  Do the top teams compare, yes, the problem, there are about 10 NAIA teams that are quality, compared to about 30 from D3.

[footballfever]

I"ll take VCSU over any MAIC team and VCSU is not a regular power in there conference. 

By the way there are not any conferences in NAIA that limit the number of scholarships below the max 24. All are allowed 24 Plus redshirts. Read some ealier post to see the breakdown on the schoalrships in NAIA.  The "average" is 15 scholarship for NAIA.  Also the academic requiremnts in NAIA are much lower.

So most of these posts by D3 backers are B.S. 

And Concordia guy,  there are only 94 teams in NAIA so I would hope D3 would have some quality teams with 200 teams.  The best of NAIA smokes the D3 teams.

Also the only comparing of top teams head to head in NAIA and D3 is 2004 Azusa Pacific #9 in NAIA played @ Trinity (TX) #8 D3. Now Trinity had a 30 game home win streak coming into the game.  Azusa Pacific won 35-7.   This game was played later in the season so no preseason rankings or rank after one game type of thing.

[smedindy]

Who's the MAIC???  

Regular power or not, they were ranked nationally and they lost to a bottom feeder in their conference - and you still said you'd take them over anyone in that conference.

I wonder what C-M, or St. Olaf, or St. John's would have done to them???

Oh, and Azusa won that game 30-14, NOT 35-7. And I don't think Trinity deserved to be ranked that highly. They struggled with Millsaps and lost to Mary Hardin-Baylor at home in the playoffs in a worse margin than Azusa.

Get the facts rigt or go home.