WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[hope1]

nice job on a great seasson girls only 1 losse that is a great seasson to bad you could not have played them next week in the final 4  have a safe trip home

[HopeCSO]

Keep your heads up high ladies.  We are all very proud of you.  You are the best examples of what a Student/Athlete should be. 

[pointlem]

Outrebounding HPU 53 to 33, and scoring more baskets, is an indication of the strength of Hope's team.  One wonders what the NCAA was thinking in matching these two teams up in the same sectional . . . and what more Coach Morehouse and his team must do next year to earn a chance to host some games.  What a fitting national championship game this would have been.

Nevertheless, what an absolutely terrific season these women have had.  I love the way they push the ball up the court.  And I love their infectuous joy and obvious affection for each other.  They've made me a fan.  And with all the great talent returning next year I'm sure I'm not the only one looking forward to more good things to come.

Thank you Jordan/Julie/Lindsay/Stacey for a great four years!

[dballa]

To the Hope fans and players, it was a pleasure watching your team out on the court tonight as well as Friday night.  They are an amazing group of young ladies.  This game should have been played at the Final Four.  It was absolutely worthy of being on tv instead of a lot of DI or DII games.

Boles lit us up from behind the arc and Green is so smooth with the ball and such a great defender.

I know you are as proud of your ladies as we are of ours.  I just hope the games next weekend are as exciting as the games have been this weekend in Brownwood.

[BrainOfJ.]

why the NCAA  would put the 2 undefeated teams in the same bracket to meet up in the elite eight is beyond me. These two should have met up in Holland next Saturday. Here's to great decision making!

[Ralph Turner]

Outrebounding HPU 53 to 33, and scoring more baskets, is an indication of the strength of Hope's team.  One wonders what the NCAA was thinking in matching these two teams up in the same sectional . . . and what more Coach Morehouse and his team must do next year to earn a chance to host some games.  What a fitting national championship game this would have been.

Good game and travel safely Hope.

To answer the question, the Selection committee had Hope #3 in the last Regional Ranking that was published.  Thomas More and DePauw did nothing in the regular season to suggest that the order changed on the selection weekend.

As an ASC fan, I understand geographic isolation.  But, the Hope games versus Oberlin, Defiance, Wheaton IL, North Central and (NAIA) Marygrove were not as beneficial to Hope's cause as Thomas More's games versus Ohio Wesleyan, Wilmington, DePauw, Centre and Wittenberg.  The same benefits can be said for DePauw's games versus IWU, Thomas More, Ohio Northern and Wittenberg.  These games are primary criteria and the equal of the (undefeated) in-region record in the eyes of the commitee!

I understand how hard it is too schedule in-region non-conference games when you are on top.  McMurry's head coach, Veronica Snow, was lamenting that tonight for 2008-09, and she loses the top 3 scorers and a solid defender.

Good luck next season.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Would love to hear some eye witness reports from last night - specifically Hope getting 10 more fouls called on them, which of course lead to the huge disparity in FT shots, and the game

[JACKET84]

HPU usually goes to the free throw line more, due to the fact that they drive to the basket more than other teams, and dare you to stop them.  I was at the game.  I didn't always agree with the officials, but I thought they were consistant for both teams.

[mcmfan]

Flying Dutch Fan,

You probably want an eye witness Hope fan, but I'm from McMurry, who got beaten four times this season against HPU and was the only team in our conference to beat them last year.  I went to the game and was really impressed with the Hope team -- a class act.  Talked to some Hope fans, and they were great, too.  But back to your question.  Drawing fouls and cleaning up on free throws has been has been a characteristic of HPU all season, and the free throw margin has decided a number of close games for them.  They have been able to out free throw opponents both on their home court, which you might expect, but also on their opponents' courts.  It was clearly the edge against Hope last night, along with Hope's inability to shut down HPU's Meia Daniels.

[Hwbb]

Outrebounding HPU 53 to 33, and scoring more baskets, is an indication of the strength of Hope's team.  One wonders what the NCAA was thinking in matching these two teams up in the same sectional . . . and what more Coach Morehouse and his team must do next year to earn a chance to host some games.  What a fitting national championship game this would have been.

Good game and travel safely Hope.

To answer the question, the Selection committee had Hope #3 in the last Regional Ranking that was published.  Thomas More and DePauw did nothing in the regular season to suggest that the order changed on the selection weekend.

As an ASC fan, I understand geographic isolation.  But, the Hope games versus Oberlin, Defiance, Wheaton IL, North Central and (NAIA) Marygrove were not as beneficial to Hope's cause as Thomas More's games versus Ohio Wesleyan, Wilmington, DePauw, Centre and Wittenberg.  The same benefits can be said for DePauw's games versus IWU, Thomas More, Ohio Northern and Wittenberg.  These games are primary criteria and the equal of the (undefeated) in-region record in the eyes of the commitee!

I understand how hard it is too schedule in-region non-conference games when you are on top.  McMurry's head coach, Veronica Snow, was lamenting that tonight for 2008-09, and she loses the top 3 scorers and a solid defender.

Good luck next season.

Mr. Turner (or Mr. Coleman, who watches this board), as a d3hoops veteran, perhaps you can put some further meaning behind your comments. We all know Hope was ranked #1 by d3hoops and the USA Today Poll, Howard Payne #2. But the NCAA placed undefeated Hope only third in their region, behind Thomas More (also undefeated, therefore certainly understandable) and 3-loss DePauw. Since what the NCAA thinks is what finally matters for bracketing and home court, does this mean that the d3hoops poll is essentially an inconsequential beauty contest to which we should pay little attention? Or are the criteria so absolutely different between d3hoops and the NCAA that the poll is finally an unreliable predictor, unlike most other polls we see? It's that disconnect, between poll position and NCAA decision, that has most Hope supporters still wondering why this game had to be played when it did and why Hope was not deserving to host. (The latter question does not imply that HPU was somehow an undeserving host. They were deserving. Both were.) Admittedly biased, I can't say I've seen an explanation to this disconnect that seems satisfying.

[Ralph Turner]

Personally I think Hope has the depth to be able to handle HPU, should that game come to pass.  The point the Schreiner guy was making is HPU has had considerable success in forcing other team's ball handlers into making bad decisons.   On several occassions posters have mentioned the turnovers the Hope team has had in some games.    His feeling was turnovers could very well be a telling factor should the two teams meet.

It is true that Hope turns the ball over at a fairly high rate - averaging 18.5 turnovers per game.  A big reason for this is how hard they push the ball up the court. 

Another factor to look at is that although they average 18.5 turnovers per game, they are forcing their opponents to turn the ball over 23.9 times per game.  Hope is also averaging 14.4 steals per game.

That's a good analysis by FDF. Hope's women average nearly 65 shots taken per game. That's a lot of shots, and a lot of possessions per game.  HPU has played the same number of games as Hope and has taken 265 fewer shots than has Hope so the two teams obviously play at different paces. By contrast, Calvin's women average 53 shots per game and Hope's men (whose offense I consider to be pretty high octane) average about 60 shots. IMO, Hope's women do a good job of taking care of the ball and if any opponent thinks they have an advantage in the TO department I think they will find that assumption to be quite mistaken.

To answer the question about drawing fouls, a field goal attempt is not recorded when the offensive player has drawn a foul going to the basket as McMurry Head Coach Veronica Snow predicted would be HPU's game plan.  (Coach Snow's assessment is in an Abilene Reporter-News interview.  They drive the basket and dare you to foul them.)

Hope shot 265 more FGA's this season (or about 9 per game).  Let's simplify where 265 more FGA's in Hope's season came from over HPU's FGA numbers.  Let's not include the permutations of steals, turnovers, "charges", etc.

HPU committed 421 Personal fouls to their opponents 566.  HPU drew 145 more fouls from their opponents. 

Let's imagine that Hope has 145 possessions that did not end in the foul that HPU would have drawn as a foul.  If Hope misses 56% of their FGA's, then Hope gets 38% of the rebounds as offensive rebounds. 145 x .56 = 81 new possessions.  If they miss 56% of the put-backs and repeat attempts on those 81 new possessions, then they have 45 "new possessions".  (81 x .56 = 45).  If Hope misses 56% of the shots and gets the offensive rebound 38% of the time, that is an extra 10 shots on "putbacks".

145 + 45 + 10 = 200 possessions that are recorded by Hope instead the number resulting by having drawn a foul, as HPU does.  I think that the different styles of play are reflected in the statistics.  The difference of 65 possessions over a 30 game season (essentially one per half) can be attributed to tempo alone.

The Hope possession ends in a FG or a defensive rebound.  HPU's possession is reflected on the FT line.

Thanks for the chance to explain.  That HPU-Hope game was typical HPU, as we McMurry fans saw four times this year!   

[Ralph Turner]

Outrebounding HPU 53 to 33, and scoring more baskets, is an indication of the strength of Hope's team.  One wonders what the NCAA was thinking in matching these two teams up in the same sectional . . . and what more Coach Morehouse and his team must do next year to earn a chance to host some games.  What a fitting national championship game this would have been.

Good game and travel safely Hope.

To answer the question, the Selection committee had Hope #3 in the last Regional Ranking that was published.  Thomas More and DePauw did nothing in the regular season to suggest that the order changed on the selection weekend.

As an ASC fan, I understand geographic isolation.  But, the Hope games versus Oberlin, Defiance, Wheaton IL, North Central and (NAIA) Marygrove were not as beneficial to Hope's cause as Thomas More's games versus Ohio Wesleyan, Wilmington, DePauw, Centre and Wittenberg.  The same benefits can be said for DePauw's games versus IWU, Thomas More, Ohio Northern and Wittenberg.  These games are primary criteria and the equal of the (undefeated) in-region record in the eyes of the commitee!

I understand how hard it is too schedule in-region non-conference games when you are on top.  McMurry's head coach, Veronica Snow, was lamenting that tonight for 2008-09, and she loses the top 3 scorers and a solid defender.

Good luck next season.

Mr. Turner (or Mr. Coleman, who watches this board), as a d3hoops veteran, perhaps you can put some further meaning behind your comments. We all know Hope was ranked #1 by d3hoops and the USA Today Poll, Howard Payne #2. But the NCAA placed undefeated Hope only third in their region, behind Thomas More (also undefeated, therefore certainly understandable) and 3-loss DePauw. Since what the NCAA thinks is what finally matters for bracketing and home court, does this mean that the d3hoops poll is essentially an inconsequential beauty contest to which we should pay little attention?

Well...kinda    (Parenthetically, I am not a voter on the D3hoops.com poll, but I think that the D3Hoops.com poll gives us fans something to discuss in the 11 weeks of the season prior to the release of the first Regional Rankings.)


Or are the criteria so absolutely different between d3hoops and the NCAA that the poll is finally an unreliable predictor, unlike most other polls we see?

Yes, they are measuring different aspects of the season.  The Handbook is very clear (by the absence of any inclusion of such polls) that any "commercial power rating" or poll ("Massey", the ABCA, or D3Hoops.com) has no bearing the the seeding and tournament process.   Please read the Handbook for all matters concerning the tournament and the way that the NCAA (D-III) member institutions have determined that the Women's Basketball Championship shall be determined.

It's that disconnect, between poll position and NCAA decision, that has most Hope supporters still wondering why this game had to be played when it did and why Hope was not deserving to host. (The latter question does not imply that HPU was somehow an undeserving host. They were deserving. Both were.) Admittedly biased, I can't say I've seen an explanation to this disconnect that seems satisfying.

2008 Handbook

I hope this clarifies the matter.

[Hwbb]

2008 Handbook

I hope this clarifies the matter.
[/quote]
Thank you, Mr. Turner. That was helpful. I can't say that I'm fully convinced that a group of young women who do everything their schedule asks of them still hasn't done enough, no matter what what conference they're in or who they play non-conference. But that's me. I'll not raise this subject again.

[Pat Coleman]

Since what the NCAA thinks is what finally matters for bracketing and home court, does this mean that the d3hoops poll is essentially an inconsequential beauty contest to which we should pay little attention?

It depends -- do you want to know who the best teams are? Look at our poll. Do you want to know how the NCAA will bracket teams? Look at the regional poll.

[hope1]

i see the girls are back hope they had a nice trip today