WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[dballa]

There was no hostility, just making a point.  I certainly could understand the question being asked as to why the players went up to the refs if it was never witnessed before, but the way it was said implied the HPU players did it to gain favoritism with the officials.


With that being said I won't discuss it any further.  I know Hope College will put on a first rate Final Four and I hope the games will be just as fun and exciting as they were this past weekend.

[hope1]

i have extra tickets for the girls game for friday and sat if anyone wants them can email me please   doug_tysse@yahoo.com

[Pat Coleman]

Time for all of you HPU folks to just go away. 

Because they brought up a legitimate question about the postgame reaction? I've heard about it from a neutral party who was present.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Time for all of you HPU folks to just go away. 

Because they brought up a legitimate question about the postgame reaction? I've heard about it from a neutral party who was present.

I considered the post by JACKET84 to be nothing more than inflamatory and bordering on rubbing salt in the wound.  Knowing Coach Morehouse, I seriously doubt the truth of any of that post.  Maybe I'm wrong, and it really happened - but if it did, how would anyone who posts here be able to answer that question? 

[sac]

Nice article about Hope's 4 Seniors

http://hollandsentinel.com/stories/031708/localsports_20080317033.shtml

[JACKET84]

Time for all of you HPU folks to just go away. 

Because they brought up a legitimate question about the postgame reaction? I've heard about it from a neutral party who was present.

I considered the post by JACKET84 to be nothing more than inflamatory and bordering on rubbing salt in the wound.  Knowing Coach Morehouse, I seriously doubt the truth of any of that post.  Maybe I'm wrong, and it really happened - but if it did, how would anyone who posts here be able to answer that question? 

I wasn't "rubbing salt in the wound".  I just know what I (and others around me) witnessed.  I thought he was a little unprofessional.  Every coach could take a lesson from the George Fox coach.  I don't know anything about the man, other than what I saw Friday night.  He looked like a class act to me.  I'm hoping that Hope will now help cheer for HPU in the finals, just like McMurry did.

[Ralph Turner]

On a neutral court, Hope wins.  If HPU played at Hope College, they would lose by 10.  ...

I am glad that you have quantified the home court advantage for Hope at +7.5 points.

That is a useful statistic going forward.  I will submit the 7.5 point Hope home court advantage to the Calvin and Albion fans for their consideration.   (It works for men and women, right?)    

Actually Massey's MOV has not been updated to reflect Saturday's game, and predicts #1 HPU 64.27, #2 Hope 58.78.

I think that Massey hit it.

Massey MOV

Aoff minus Bdef plus (Ah + Bh )/ 4 = A score

HPU = 74.82 - 12.83 = 62.99 + {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 64.27

Boff minus Adef minus (Ah + Bh)/4  = B score

Hope= 77.44 - 17.38 = 60.06 - {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 58.78

Mr. Turner, if you believe Massey "hit it" on the HPU - Hope comparison, is it accurate to assume you think Massey's ratings are generally correct overall. If so, then might you also agree that the continuing questions about the NCAA, its criteria for evaluating teams, and its overall stewardship of the D3 tournament are legit (nonwithstanding the NCAA rulebook about ignoring other polls, as you pointed out previously). According to Massey, HPU is better than Hope, and they proved it on the court. Okay. But also according to Massey, #1 and #2 played too early (been debated extensively already); 9 of the top 12 teams were on the same half of the bracket; Hope and UW-Whitewater each had to play three top-12 teams, and Hope all on the road; HPU just one, and neither Oglethorpe nor Messiah played any top-12 teams (and that had nothing to do with Thomas More's upset loss). You look at these numbers for a single game to support your view that HPU was and is the better team. Fair enough--they did win the game, after all. But can you also understand why some others can also look at these same numbers and continue to ask, something's just not right. Or fair. Which, of course, life isn't either. Besy wishes to HPU this weekend.

Thanks and I will answer this evening after work. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Nice article about Hope's 4 Seniors

http://hollandsentinel.com/stories/031708/localsports_20080317033.shtml

Indeed, an amazing four years for them (3 for Lange).  Between the four of them they are in the top ten all time in 22 career categories and 8 single season categories.  I'm working on formating the stuff I pulled together, and will post it shortly.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Some great numbers for an amazing group of seniors.   In their four years, they were 110-10, including a national championship, and 9-2 in the NCAA tournament - all road games.  Individually, they "only" accomplished this:

Career Numbers

Jordyn Boles

Games Played	120	2nd
Games Started	120	2nd
Points scored	1266	3rd
Scoring average	10.6	9th
FG Made	445	5th
FG Attempts	1074	3rd
3pt Made	218	1st
3pt Attempts	570	1st
3pt Percentage	0.382	4th
FT percentage	0.767	6th
Assists	219	8th

Julie Henderson

Games Played	122	1st
Games Started	122	1st
3pt Percentage	0.367	5th
FT Percentage	0.758	8th
Assists	444	2nd
Blocks	32	9th
Steals	235	1st	1.41 A/TO ratio

Lindsay Lange

FG Percentage	0.534	3rd
Blocks	123	2nd

Stacy Warsen

Games Played	115	5th
FT attemps	277	9th

Single Season Numbers

Jordyn Boles

3pt Made

65

2nd

2007-08

Jullie Henderson

Assists	119	5th	2006-07
Assists	107	8th	2005-06
Assists	106	9th	2007-08
Assists	104	10th	2004-05
Steals	78	3rd	2005-06

Lindsay Lange

FG Percentage	0.597	1st	2006-07
Blocks	53	2nd	2007-08

Stacy Warsen - didn't get into the top 10 for an single season records, but had an amazing offensive rebounding career.  She finished with a total of 441 rebounds, and 216 of those were offensive rebounds!!

<edited> Updated to include the 2 games Julie Hendereson played in 03-04 prior to her injury and being redshirted.

[Ralph Turner]

Mr. Turner, if you believe Massey "hit it" on the HPU - Hope comparison, is it accurate to assume you think Massey's ratings are generally correct overall?

I think that "Massey" MOV is probably the most accurate statistical model that I have found on the internet at measuring an RPI in D3.  The biases that are built into Massey include the schedules of D3 teams that are regionally focused and cannot be compared to the D-1 model where a national focus is present.

If so, then might you also agree that the continuing questions about the NCAA, its criteria for evaluating teams, and its overall stewardship of the D3 tournament are legit (notwithstanding the NCAA rulebook about ignoring other polls, as you pointed out previously)?

Yes, considering that the NCAA, including members institutions such as the MIAA and the ASC and at least 40 other conferences, have determined the most equitable method of measuring  the performances across all sports.  And, that this can be evaluated on a yearly basis to improve the process of access to the national championship.  I wonder how much HPU's Massey Index benefited from the 89-50 pasting that HPU laid on D-II UTexas-Permian Basin because HPU could not find another opponent.

According to Massey, HPU is better than Hope, and they proved it on the court. Okay. But also according to Massey, #1 and #2 played too early (been debated extensively already); 9 of the top 12 teams were on the same half of the bracket.

If you want to talk about geographical proximity to a McMurry alum, I will point out that D3Hoops.com #4 McMurry men (undefeated versus D3) got sent to Calvin in the Sectional Finals, along with #3 and the team that beat #2 in 2000.  I will point out that #1 South Region Seed Mississippi Men in 2007 were flown to sectional host Virginia Wesleyan for the Sectionals.  I will point out that this year's South Region #3 McMurry played ASC rival HPU in the second round!  (Kinda like Calvin and Hope playing for the fourth time in the second round of the NCAA's.)  And that is just in basketball alone.  As for Football, I can post for hours about the things that geographic proximity has done to the ASC! 

Hope and UW-Whitewater each had to play three top-12 teams, and Hope all on the road; HPU just one, and neither Oglethorpe nor Messiah played any top-12 teams (and that had nothing to do with Thomas More's upset loss). You look at these numbers for a single game to support your view that HPU was and is the better team. Fair enough--they did win the game, after all. But can you also understand why some others can also look at these same numbers and continue to ask, something's just not right? Or fair? Which, of course, life isn't either.

Oh absolutely.  We fans in the ASC would love to get some bracket-equity.  We are grateful when the adjudicated criteria and bracket luck coincide for HPU as it did this year.  The 2008 Mary Hardin-Baylor (UMHB) Men's team was #1 in the South Region (26-2 overall/23-2 South Region) and gets shipped to Millsaps where they lose in the Regional Finals on an "ESPN Buzzer Beater"...  #1 in the South Region by the NCAA's own criteria and don't get to host a Regional?

Best wishes to HPU this weekend.

Thanks, and good luck in Salem.

As for Massey, I believe that teams in D3 get tied into the strength of region's ability to diversify its schedules.  The Great Lakes and the Midwest Regions seem to be able to play the Massey game well.  The OWP and the OOWP in the Southwest are especially challenged because the ASC wishes to play schedule for the ease and convenience of D3 scheduling and not gearing a schedule towards the OWP/OOWP.

[David Collinge]

Time for all of you HPU folks to just go away. 

Because they brought up a legitimate question about the postgame reaction? I've heard about it from a neutral party who was present.

I considered the post by JACKET84 to be nothing more than inflamatory and bordering on rubbing salt in the wound.  Knowing Coach Morehouse, I seriously doubt the truth of any of that post.  Maybe I'm wrong, and it really happened - but if it did, how would anyone who posts here be able to answer that question? 

I think it would be better to move on and celebrate what two great teams accomplished in this season. 

But since you asked, while I can't vouch for language or intentions, as I was in a seat where the Hope bench was partly obscured (and much to far away to hear anything in that loud crowd), Coach Morehouse appeared to be very, very angry at the end of the game.  Maybe 10 minutes later, when I was down at the media table, he reappeared on the court and was still exceedingly upset, although I heard no salty language and he certainly wasn't pursuing anyone.  It happens, even to even-keeled and gentlemanly fellows, a description I am told fits your coach.  (Anyone who was at the Wooster/Albion men's game a few years back saw and even more vigorous demonstration by a couple of very good and professional coaches from Wooster.)  It was an emotional time, and a very difficult loss, and who can blame the coach if his emotions got the better of him?  I certainly don't.

Shortly after the game ended (like, 1-2 minutes later), when the HPU players formed what I understand is their usual postgame prayer circle and asked the Hope players to join them (something I found far more surprising than the pregame greeting of the referees, by the way), it was Coach Morehouse who calmed down enough to instruct his team to join in, as he did himself.  You may take that for whatever it may be worth to you.

[JACKET84]

I couldn't ask for a better answer than that.  Thank you for your input.

[mjfasteenwolf]

Some great numbers for an amazing group of seniors.   In their four years, they were 110-10, including a national championship, and 9-2 in the NCAA tournament - all road games.  Individually, they "only" accomplished this:

Career Numbers

Jordyn Boles

Games Played	120	1st	tied with Julie Henderson
Games Started	120	1st	tied with Julie Henderson
Points scored	1266	3rd
Scoring average	10.6	9th
FG Made	445	5th
FG Attempts	1074	3rd
3pt Made	218	1st
3pt Attempts	570	1st
3pt Percentage	0.382	4th
FT percentage	0.767	6th
Assists	219	8th

Julie Henderson

Games Played	120	1st	tied with Jordyn Boles
Games Started	120	1st	tied with Jordyn Boles
3pt Percentage	0.365	5th
FT Percentage	0.755	8th
Assists	436	2nd
Blocks	31	9th
Steals	233	1st	1.40 A/TO ratio

Lindsay Lange

FG Percentage	0.534	3rd
Blocks	123	2nd

Stacy Warsen

Games Played	115	5th
FT attemps	277	9th

Single Season Numbers

Jordyn Boles

3pt Made

65

2nd

2007-08

Jullie Henderson

Assists	119	5th	2006-07
Assists	107	8th	2005-06
Assists	106	9th	2007-08
Assists	104	10th	2004-05
Steals	78	3rd	2005-06

Lindsay Lange

FG Percentage	0.597	1st	2006-07
Blocks	53	2nd	2007-08

Stacy Warsen - didn't get into the top 10 for an single season records, but had an amazing offensive rebounding career.  She finished with a total of 441 rebounds, and 216 of those were offensive rebounds!!

These are all very amazing stats, what a great group of girls, I am sure MO will miss them a lot, both and off the court. I do have to question you on one record though, according to my count Julie has 122 starts and games played if you count the two from her freshmen year.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

mjf - you're right - and that explains why I had some numbers disagreeing.  I'll have to go back and get the stats from those 2 games, and then I'll update my post

[mjfasteenwolf]

you are welcome, I wondered if that was throwing you off.