WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I'm dead serious. 

Yes, you said that profanity shouldn't be tolerated, but only after you said you were "absolutely appallled" at our complaints.  Our complaint is that in this instance, profanity was tolerated.

Now you're claiming we made this stuff up to make it sound worse, give me a break.  I witnessed this all first hand, so don't give me that crap.

Why can't you just admit that it was wrong, that something needs to be done about it, and quit trying to project some blame on us.

[knights2000]

I get the feeling that if this game was held at Hope some of the same things may have been heard from the Hope student section.

Not a chance... You are dead wrong here... While the occasional slip may happen at Hope, I guarantee that the AD and President would nip it in the bud. I really doubt you heard anything as bad from the Hope fans as has been mentioned here about the DePauw. You should be embarrassed and coming to this site to grovel, rather that passing the buck and defending your school...

As a Calvin fan, I will agree. I attended both Calvin/Hope mens games at Hope, where the Hope student section was much larger than the ones at Calvin (duh). Anyways, from what I can remember, Hope's chants were all within reason. I didn't have a problem with them, and from my personal expierience, I find it hard to believe that Hope fans said something out of reason.

[Old Gold]

Okay FDF,

Would this work better for you?

1. Profanity shouldn't be tolerated at athletic events.
2. I am appalled that accusations are being directed to the DePauw and NCAA officials for their "inaction."

I never said it didn't occur. It did. Is there a justification for it at a sporting event? No. How much clearer can I be on my feelings about that?

When the Hope posters extended the discussion into stating the DePauw officials didn't do anything, that's when you made things up.

I still am curious, is there no profanity at MIAA events or is it a rare occurence? It can't be both just as it isn't at DePauw University or the other SCAC schools. If I am limited to those two choices, then I'd have to say it's also a rare occurence at DePauw and in the SCAC.

I also haven't seen a post as to what you would do in addition to escorting students out of the venue, reading the sportsmanship announcement several times and addressing individual students on their individual behavior.

Again, good luck to the Hope players this weekend!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Actually, that kind of response is right on.  I can assure you that should anything even close to this happen at a Hope game, your school, and probably the local paper would be receiveing a written apology.  I also know that the President of Hope, or either AD or SID or any coach would simply not allow it to happen.  The Dew Crew (Hope's student section) will stop a cheer (if the cheer happens to be negative toward the opponenet instead of supporting their team) with just a simple shake of the head from one of the coaches.

Do those kind of things happen in the MIAA ever - yes.  In my experience it has happened typically by individuals - some of whom were removed from the gym.  The only time I can remember a student section saying anything like that was the Calvin students at a Hope / Calvin mens game.  In that instance, it was chanted maybe twice before the head coach at Calvin put a stop to it.  I think the coach has the ability to stop it.

I thought I posted this before, but I also think a Technical Foul is a great answer.  Punish the team once, and they will make sure that it doesn't happen again.

As far as the DePauw officials not getting involved - I am only posting based on what I saw, and what other sources (reliable sources in the know) have shared with me.

[AndersDY]

And to 'andersdy' who posted something about DePauw's "tough style" which might have made the crowd more "tough" and the team using an "out-of-control, offensive foul prone style of play" with DePauw's #11 "throwing her body around"... Don't come up with some loose relationship between team and fans, and a scouting report on the Tigers and #11, after seeing them for one game, or on one weekend. That is completely ridiculous. As for the DePauw players "pushing off, at least lightly," I might agree with the lightly part, if anything. You make the Tigers out to be the devil, and your Flying Dutch, the saints. Oh, okay. I have seen enough of the DePauw women's basketball team to know that they are a gem of a group, led by a truly classy coach, and they're as within-the-rules as anybody. So, you'd be wise not to go there. As for the complaining about Bria Ebels getting her second foul, early in the game, when #11 was "throwing her body around," I can bet it wasn't #11's intent. But, as stated earlier, I have had occasion to watch Hope play, and although immensely talented, Bria Ebels is a flopper. I've seen it a number of times. Case in point: end of the first half against Wash U. Sure, the Wash U player had no business being that close, but Bria put an exclamation point on her fall. That's how I saw it, anyway. I would love to see it on tape. If I am wrong, there are others I have definitely witnessed, as a neutral observer of previous games, I might add. Although not against the rules, some people perceive flopping as being deceitful. Oops, my bad. Forgot we're talking about Hope here. No way a Flying Dutch would stoop to that level. What am I thinking?  

Ok, calm down, it was baseless speculation as I started the whole theory with "I wonder if..." I watched one game and based on that game, #11 appeared to like creating contact. Nothing against the rules about that, but I do think that if an offensive player wants to create contact, that shouldn't be a defensive foul every time, and it wasn't called way more than it should have been, but I did think #11 succeeded in getting one cheap foul called on Bria. All I was saying is #11 particularly, and some of the rest of the team seemed to play a tough style that wasn't afraid of contact. They play a perfectly legal style of basketball, but it could be described as "attacking." I was simply throwing out an idea that perhaps misguided fans saw an attacking style of basketball and determined that they should also be on the attack from the stands. I have no basis for saying that other than observing a game where both team and fans were tough, but in very different ways.

Andersdy, you might want to clarify your post about the DePauw players having a style of play. If you are implying that the DePauw coaches "teach" a certain style, then you are on an island, my friend. Kris Huffman and her teams are among the most respected on any level and they play the game fairly and with integrity.

Yeah, to followup, DePauw was a tough team, and I did think the #11 plays a style which can draw fouls, but also creates offensive fouls which I was hoping the refs wouldn't ignore. Certainly any coach teaches some sort of style of play, but I wasn't saying anything underhanded is taught as if the players are schooled in getting cheap fouls. I saw nothing from the DePauw bench the entire game to question their class. I thought they liked creating contact, some of which I felt could have been called in Hope's favor, but there was nothing shameful done by the team. Heck, we Hope fans have a men's player who has been accused of knowing some tricks for drawing cheap fouls, so we know how we're only tempted to call a physical play "dirty" if it creates a call which went against us.


I know nothing about the reaction of the administration and wasn't near the non-student section, so the only claim I will make is that "bullsh--" and "you f--ked up" chants appeared to be well rehearsed parts of the DePauw students' repetoire. They were not random outbursts by individuals, but the planned cheers of a noticeable core group of students. I did not see any self-policing from the rest of the students as none in the student section seemed to have a problem with it. I won't claim to know specifics about what was done to stop these actions, but I do know that the same reports about the fans were made after Friday's game, so it doesn't appear as if the problem popped up out of nowhere when the cheers in question started in the first minute of Saturday's game. I have no idea what was done to control the students during the game (from my seat, all I heard was Charlie Brown's mother through the PA system) but it didn't appear that it had been considered enough of a problem to put a clear stop to any time before the game.

[realist]

Spoke with a person who has family attending De Pauw, and  several things are clear (to me at least).   What happened last Sat. night was not an isolated incident.  What is considered as rude, vulgar or objectionable language at Hope, Calvin and most of the MIAA is more "socially acceptable" at De Pauw.   Some students at De Pauw avoid attending games because they would rather not hear the trash.  The administration at De Pauw has a wide variety of means to end offensive behavior.  You can repeatedly play the canned NCAA message on sportmanship or you can physically go the announcers table, and make the announcement yourself as an offical of De Pauw.  You can eject abusive fans one at a time or as a group.  The few times I've seen a fan ejected at an MIAA game it has had a very sobering effect on the entire crowd, and offensive conduct ceased.  Apparently the isolated attempts at discipling any De Pauw students were done rather privately, and had little impact on the entire crowd.   De Pauw U. prides itself on it's supposed high academic standards, and the success of some of it's grads.  One poster thinks it is great the high % of students involved in "greek" activities, but at what expense?   Perhaps the norm at De Pauw is for the administration to do litle to rein in any negative behavior on the part of students?

[GoKnights68]

Do those kind of things happen in the MIAA ever - yes.  In my experience it has happened typically by individuals - some of whom were removed from the gym.  The only time I can remember a student section saying anything like that was the Calvin students at a Hope / Calvin mens game.  In that instance, it was chanted maybe twice before the head coach at Calvin put a stop to it.  I think the coach has the ability to stop it. 





(sigh)




The only time someone's ever said any profanity is Calvin students.  Yup...



I which I was at this game.  I've never seen any people so outraged over students. 

[Civic Minded]

Do those kind of things happen in the MIAA ever - yes.  In my experience it has happened typically by individuals - some of whom were removed from the gym.  The only time I can remember a student section saying anything like that was the Calvin students at a Hope / Calvin mens game.  In that instance, it was chanted maybe twice before the head coach at Calvin put a stop to it.  I think the coach has the ability to stop it. 





(sigh)




The only time someone's ever said any profanity is Calvin students.  Yup...



I which I was at this game.  I've never seen any people so outraged over students. 

Hey, these DePauw fans (adults and students) made Kzoo fans of years past look tame!       And no, I don't think the original poster intended to imply that it only ever happened at Calvin.  But really, nowadays it rarely happens in any MIAA school, except this year, and that happened to be Calvin students (at least in the repetoire of games I attended).  The point was actually a compliment -- Calvin's coach realized a bad thing, and put a stop to it right away.

At any rate, how 'bout we drop it now?  It happened, it was out of hand compared with what we've grown accustomed to, and its over.  If that's the way school's in "the real world" function, then fine.  But those who take offense are allowed to let their feelings be known. 

[hornet fan]

Perfect timing...

Hey, these DePauw fans (adults and students) made Kzoo fans of years past look tame!

I had to come over from the Men's Board at Cowboy J's request...

As an MIAA fan, it does happen (beyond Calvin), and when it does, the Game Administraors at ALL sites (Hope, Calvin, Adrian, Albion, Alma, and yes even Kalamazoo and Olivet) put it to an end.

I can go on and on about what Hope fans have done over the years that has crossed the line, but why?  Why would I bring up the fact that Hope Students have called K students "F#ggots?"  Why would I bring up the fact that after a heated Hope/K game, a Hope fan called a K Coach a "N!gger?"  Is it apalling, yes.  Is it isolated, yes.  Hope fans are not perfect, but burying the group because of the actions of 10% of the population is unnecessary.

I was not there, it sounds out of line.  But cut these people some slack...

At any rate, how 'bout we drop it now? It happened, it was out of hand compared with what we've grown accustomed to, and its over. If that's the way school's in "the real world" function, then fine. But those who take offense are allowed to let their feelings be known.

I could not agree more...

[hornet fan]

Oh yeah, good luck to the Flying Dutch in the Final 4...

[gordonmann]

While I originally intended to stay out of this thread, I decided to offer a different perspective since I broadcasted the games at DePauw for NCAA Sports this weekend.

My experience was a pleasant one, thanks largely to the efforts of DePauw's Sports Information Director and his crew.  They provided very professional support, which I appreciated.

While I wasn't close enough to the student section to discern what they were chanting most of the time, I was impressed with the turnout.  The students filled the Lilly Center on Friday night despite it being the beginning of spring break.  From experiences elsewhere, I know that's not a given.

I was impressed at the men's basketball team painting their chests up in support of the women.  It's hard to imagine J.J. Redick or Rudy Gay doing that in Division I.  The band did a fantastic job (always a fan of bands doing renditions of Kansas songs), adding to the atmosphere.

As for the students, I did hear the BS chant but didn't think too much about it.  It's fairly commonplace at sporting event, which doesn't make it right, but might explain why I didn't have much of a reaction to it.  From my admittedly isolated vantage point, I enjoyed the DePauw students' creative outfits which included a caveman, a slice of pizza and characters from Peter Pan.  Sounds like the beginning of a "walked into a bar" joke.

And I was impressed by the Hope fans on Saturday who filled the gym and had a "Let's Go Hope" chant going 90 minutes before the tip.  While I may've missed some of the unsavory moments, I was impressed with the crowd.

That's not meant as dispersion toward the Hope fans on here.  I wouldn't try to dispute the veracity of their complaints.  But I thought it might be good to offer a different perspective.

To echo the closing sentiments of the past two messages, let us "Carry on my wayward sons.  There'll be peace when we are done.  Lay our weary heads to rest.  Don't we cry no more."

[Pat Coleman]

I agree. Not to condone the bull-s*** chant, but it is very pervasive. It's unfair to paint DePauw as an outlier on that issue.

I find it less troublesome than the "HEY! YOU SUCK!" chant that I heard probably 20 times this past weekend. I wonder if that will end up on Outside the Lines tonight.

[DPULefty22]

Tiger fan here.

Let me make this abundantly clear: I do NOT condone the use of profanity by a student section (I consider the 'bull-(bleep)' chant an exception to that rule, as it is a tradition at just about every sporting event I've ever been to, high school, college, and pro alike). While I consider heckling to be acceptable under certain circumstances (as long as it's not profane - the 'AIR-BALL' chant is a perfect example, so is a 'you can't do that!' after a foul), there are lines that you have to be careful not to cross. I understand this. So do all DePauw students.

But when a smattering (this is the operative word here) of fans use the f-word in one chant and are then told to stop, it's an unfortunate isolated incident. It is NOT reflective of the DePauw student section and student body as a whole, and it does NOT reflect a passive attitude from school administration - in fact, it's quite the opposite.

This is the only incident of excessive profanity that I can remember. I went back and listened to our school's broadcast of the game, in which the 'bull-(bleep)' chant is clearly audible and the 'you (bleeped) up' chant is vaguely audible. I do not once hear anything else that could even remotely be considered offensive that was orchestrated as a chant by the DePauw student section. Anyone who claims that there were chants of 'Wh*re' during the game is a liar. (So is anyone who says that DePauw parents were cursing at their own players or coaches.)

Look, I'm sorry you guys didn't get to host the regional. Greencastle happened to make more geographic sense than Holland. Besides, it wasn't like the Tigers weren't a one-loss team coming into the weekend or anything... geez. All of these complaints reek of sour grapes. But hey, prove me wrong.

If a 'bull-(bleep)' chant offends you so greatly, or an 'air-ball' chant makes you think that some poor player might get their feelings hurt... well, don't go on the road anymore. Stay within the idyllic Pleasantville that you believe the MIAA cheering sections to be, where everyone joins hands to sing Kumbaya before sharing postgame tea and crumpets.

Hope your trip to the Neal Fieldhouse, a.k.a. "the real world, not some idealized wonderland where Hope College is respected as a beacon of all that is good and just", was educational.

Go Scranton!

[SKOT]

Anyone who claims that there were chants of 'Wh*re' during the game is a liar. (So is anyone who says that DePauw parents were cursing at their own players or coaches.)

                                Box Score (Final)
                            Hope vs DePauw (3/11/06)
Site: Neal Fieldhouse; Greencastle, Indiana  Attendance: 2000


It would take a lot of ears to hear 1999 other people in the arena for the ENTIRE game!

[NW Hope Fan]

Go Scranton!

Vinegar calling our grapes sour!!!