WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[realist]

With a win at Adrian this Saturday Hope will have completed their tour of the MIAA these past three seasons with a record of 47-1....... the best in any 3 year period percentage wise.

Calvin went 35-1 in 96,97 and 98

Those are some fantastic numbers.  It is hard not to envy Hope for their record of success.  They have worked hard to build a great  program.

[sac]

Brian Morehouse became Hope's women's coach in 1997, guess what program he was trying to catch.

MIAA Champions
1993    Calvin (11-1)
1994    Alma & Calvin (10-2)
1995    Hope (11-1)
1996    Calvin (12-0)
1997    Calvin (11-1)
1998    Calvin (12-0)
1999    Calvin-Defiance (14-2)


2000      Hope (14-2)
2001   Hope (12-0)
2002   Hope (12-2)
2003   Hope (14-0)
2004   Calvin (13-1)
2005   Albion-Hope (14-2)
2006   Hope (16-0)
2007   Calvin (16-0)
2008   Hope (16-0)
2009   Hope (15-1)
2010   Hope

If I'm not mistaken, Hope has lost 12 MIAA league games since the beginning of the 2000 season.  153-12 or .927

[Hwbb]

hwbb:  If you go back to last years deserving mvp Ms. Snikkers, it is pretty obvious her ability to shoot, rebound, block shots etc. were important ingredients in making her the obvious choice. 
Personally I thought she would be the MIAA's first 3 time mvp for women's b-ball, but alas that has not come to pass due to injury. 
If you had no problem accepting Ms. Snikkers last year I am curious why you object to another player posting the same results following in her footsteps.
I have no quarrel with Ms. Greene as a player.  I would like her on my team, but I wouldn't give up CV for her.  

Really good question, realist. Amidst some very similar (and dominating) numbers, here's one small difference--Ms. Snikkers' team won the MIAA championship last season, and Ms. Verkaik's team will not. (They could still win the tournament championship and the automatic NCAA bid.) Which raises the age-old question: should a team's success have any bearing on an individual MVP selection? And if so, how much? Is an MVP the player you would pick first in a pickup game, or is it the best player on the best team, or is it the player who makes the biggest difference on her team, or does it depend? Can a great player on a eighth place team (Beckwith) ever be considered? If so, how much better do her numbers need to be? This is not an advocacy post, for Verkaik or Beckwith or Greene or anyone else. I'm more curious--what do you think? What should be the key criteria for the MVP?

[oldknight]

hwbb:  If you go back to last years deserving mvp Ms. Snikkers, it is pretty obvious her ability to shoot, rebound, block shots etc. were important ingredients in making her the obvious choice. 
Personally I thought she would be the MIAA's first 3 time mvp for women's b-ball, but alas that has not come to pass due to injury. 
If you had no problem accepting Ms. Snikkers last year I am curious why you object to another player posting the same results following in her footsteps.
I have no quarrel with Ms. Greene as a player.  I would like her on my team, but I wouldn't give up CV for her.  

Really good question, realist. Amidst some very similar (and dominating) numbers, here's one small difference--Ms. Snikkers' team won the MIAA championship last season, and Ms. Verkaik's team will not. (They could still win the tournament championship and the automatic NCAA bid.) Which raises the age-old question: should a team's success have any bearing on an individual MVP selection? And if so, how much? Is an MVP the player you would pick first in a pickup game, or is it the best player on the best team, or is it the player who makes the biggest difference on her team, or does it depend? Can a great player on a eighth place team (Beckwith) ever be considered? If so, how much better do her numbers need to be? This is not an advocacy post, for Verkaik or Beckwith or Greene or anyone else. I'm more curious--what do you think? What should be the key criteria for the MVP?

The same debate has played out on the men's board with many posters believing that Michael McClary's strong numbers (he's first in points and rebounds by a wide margin) require that he be named MVP. But his team is in fifth place and I have a hard time giving an MVP award to a player from a team that far down the list. If you see the MVP award as basically a POY award, then the debate is simpler--merely look for the person with the best league stats. My opinion has always been that the most important player on the best team should have a leg up for the award and should be given the MVP absent a dominating performance by a player on another good team. No matter how you go about it, the decision making is pretty subjective and there is simply no objective method to justify the process.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Glad you raised the distinction between MVP and POY (or MOP in the CCIW) - to me they are quite different.

IMO, MVP should almost always be from a team in at least the top half - except in extreme circumstances, how valuable could they have been if the team didn't finish pretty darn high (and first is best)?  While not really this simple, the key question is "how much worse would the team have finished if the player went out for the year just before the conference season started?"

POY (or MOP) is a more individual award.  Team success obviously is a component (how outstanding could they be if the team still went 0-14?), but it is more a matter of "how great IS this player"?

Stats obviously enter in to either award, but should not be the only factor.  Coaches presumably include such things as leadership (unquantifiable) and 'does he make the other players better' (which is more than JUST assists).

[almcguirejr]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

[realist]

MVP:  First I start with the individuals that I feel have earned first team all MIAA.  Again this is very subjective, but one must start somewhere.  All MIAA to me means an individual that could start for every team in the conference.   These are the players like in a fantasy league that you would want on your team.  The mvp is the individual you would give up any of the others to get.  In addition to being a stat leader the mvp needs to make the other players on their team better as well.  My personal preference is for the mvp to come from a top tier team, unless the individual is just so exceptional they merit the award.  
I don't have a problem giving the award to a fr. or a so., and just beacuse a person won it before doesn't mean they are a lock to repeat.  

[Dark Knight]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

Interestingly, this report said her high scoring mark at Holland Christian was 26 points in a game. Isn't it a little unusual to do so much better as a freshman in college?

[sac]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

Interestingly, this report said her high scoring mark at Holland Christian was 26 points in a game. Isn't it a little unusual to do so much better as a freshman in college?

26 points in HS is in a 32 minute game, .........26 points is the equivalent of 32 in college.

......yes it is a little unusual.

[sac]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

Interestingly, this report said her high scoring mark at Holland Christian was 26 points in a game. Isn't it a little unusual to do so much better as a freshman in college?

26 points in HS is in a 32 minute game, .........26 points is the equivalent of 32 in college.

......yes it is a little unusual.

Also, no shot-clock in the high school game vs 24 seconds in the college game.

[oldknight]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

I hate to bring this up now but if you check out the video at the 55 second mark, you'll see that Carissa clearly walks--switching her pivot foot--before successfully launching a shot from the arc.

[Pat Coleman]

30-second shot clock in NCAA women's basketball.

[Dark Knight]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

Interestingly, this report said her high scoring mark at Holland Christian was 26 points in a game. Isn't it a little unusual to do so much better as a freshman in college?

26 points in HS is in a 32 minute game, .........26 points is the equivalent of 32 in college.

......yes it is a little unusual.

Also, no shot-clock in the high school game vs 24 seconds in the college game.

There are lots of differences between high school and college -- in the rules, but also in the competition. I just can't remember any cases where high school players step into the MIAA and their point total goes up. Not that I know the high school stats for very many players.

[realist]

I don't think the scoring improvement is all that unusual.  One can make the case she is now surrounded by a much better "supporting cast" than she may have been in h.s.  There is also the very real possibility that she is just now physically maturing, and really learning how to use her size, speed etc. to best advantage.  There is also the aspect of coaching, and CV is not the first post up player to improve her game under Ross.  From what I have read, and heard CV works very hard to constantly improve her game, and this is a product of that work ethic.
Players peak at different times in their playing careers.  Some may reach a peak as jr. or sr. in h.s., and other as fr. or so's in college, and still others continue improving as jr., and sr. in college.  Early bloomers, versus late bloomers.

[oldknight]

Good feature on Carissa Verkaik:

http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=118657&catid=128

Interestingly, this report said her high scoring mark at Holland Christian was 26 points in a game. Isn't it a little unusual to do so much better as a freshman in college?

26 points in HS is in a 32 minute game, .........26 points is the equivalent of 32 in college.

......yes it is a little unusual.

Also, no shot-clock in the high school game vs 24 seconds in the college game.

There are lots of differences between high school and college -- in the rules, but also in the competition. I just can't remember any cases where high school players step into the MIAA and their point total goes up. Not that I know the high school stats for very many players.

What Verkaik has done as a college freshmen is nothing short of remarkable. I saw her play about a dozen times when she was in high school (my daughter faced Carissa during Verkaik's first year on the Holland Christian varsity) and followed her development over a four year prep career. She got better every year. When I heard that John Ross landed her I knew she would be an impact player in the MIAA and would eventually become a double digit scorer. But I thought Verkaik's first year impact would largely be on defense and the boards. Irrespective of your talent level, to be the high scorer on any team you need to viewed by your fellow players and your coach as the first scoring option. That doesn't normally happen to a college freshmen, especially when you realize that Calvin is a respectable team even without Carissa in the lineup.

At the risk of being accused of sexism (probably accurately) I can also tell you that my experience with female athletes convinces me that it's more challenging for a female player than a male player to be suddenly thrust into a role of such prominence. On a men's team, the players will normally accept you as a player and a person if they think you can help them win. It's great if fellow players like you, but even if you're a jerk most men's teams can play with the jerk if he simply helps the team win. It's my experience that if the women on your team don't like you, your chances of getting the ball enough to score 46 points in a game is--well, pretty much zero. Generally speaking, women have to like their teammate before they can play effectively play with her. The fact that Calvin's upperclassmen (or women) seem more than happy to let Verkaik take the stage, speaks volumes about her--and them.