WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[KnightSlappy]

In a similar way, though, you can't assume that increased time would result in a decrease in efficieny for any particular player. Especially when we're talking about players who received comparatively significant minutes.

[Mr. Ypsi]

KS beat me to the obvious response.

The debate here is very reminiscent of the debate that's been occurring on the CCIW board between Lyndsie Long and Christina Solari partisans.  As with the candidates here, both outstanding players, but with significantly different PT and team needs (Christina is in the Carrie or Philana role).  IWU (like Hope) blows out a majority of opponents, and has such a wealth of talent that high scoring from any given player is just not needed.

My conclusion for both CCIW and MIAA would be that IF the award was MVP (i.e., how much worse would the team be if the player disappeared), Long and Verkaik would be the obvious winners.  But for POY (or MOP in the CCIW) the question is much less clear.

[wiz]

KS beat me to the obvious response.

The debate here is very reminiscent of the debate that's been occurring on the CCIW board between Lyndsie Long and Christina Solari partisans.  As with the candidates here, both outstanding players, but with significantly different PT and team needs (Christina is in the Carrie or Philana role).  IWU (like Hope) blows out a majority of opponents, and has such a wealth of talent that high scoring from any given player is just not needed.

My conclusion for both CCIW and MIAA would be that IF the award was MVP (i.e., how much worse would the team be if the player disappeared), Long and Verkaik would be the obvious winners.  But for POY (or MOP in the CCIW) the question is much less clear.

Carissa it is then.

[Mr. Ypsi]

And I've just learned on the men's board that the MIAA award IS MVP, not POY - true?

If so, from the discussion here, I'd probably have to go with Carissa.  Hope could lose any ONE player and still be a nationally top 10 team; without implying that the rest of Calvin's squad is a bunch of nobodies, it would seem the loss of Verkaik would be a much more serious blow.

[sac]

Its MVP by name, but I'm not so sure they've stuck to strickly choosing the 'most valuable player' by definition and have treated it as more of a most outstanding player award.

Unlike on the men's side, the women have named several MVP's who did not win the conference championship.

2000     Lisa Hoekstra, Hope
2001   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2002   Niki Grubb, Kalamazoo
2003   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2004   Karen Hall, Alma
2005   Sarah Caskey, Albion
2006   Lisa Winkle, Calvin & Bria Ebels, Hope
2007   Lisa Winkle, Calvin
2008   Alison Kessler, Saint Mary's
2009   Carrie Snikkers, Hope

[Erm Schmigget]

KS beat me to the obvious response.

The debate here is very reminiscent of the debate that's been occurring on the CCIW board between Lyndsie Long and Christina Solari partisans.  As with the candidates here, both outstanding players, but with significantly different PT and team needs (Christina is in the Carrie or Philana role).  IWU (like Hope) blows out a majority of opponents, and has such a wealth of talent that high scoring from any given player is just not needed.

My conclusion for both CCIW and MIAA would be that IF the award was MVP (i.e., how much worse would the team be if the player disappeared), Long and Verkaik would be the obvious winners.  But for POY (or MOP in the CCIW) the question is much less clear.

This is also part of the reason why good players on bad teams don't get consideration.  Case in point:  Nyemade Cooper from Kalamazoo had an excellent year, statistically, last year (08-09).  She averaged 15.3 pts and 9.1 rebs per game, 1 each better than Snikkers, but how much worse would her team be without her?  Well, at 0-23 overall, not much.  Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin', as they say.  

[realist]

Its MVP by name, but I'm not so sure they've stuck to strickly choosing the 'most valuable player' by definition and have treated it as more of a most outstanding player award.

Unlike on the men's side, the women have named several MVP's who did not win the conference championship.

2000     Lisa Hoekstra, Hope
2001   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2002   Niki Grubb, Kalamazoo
2003   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2004   Karen Hall, Alma
2005   Sarah Caskey, Albion
2006   Lisa Winkle, Calvin & Bria Ebels, Hope
2007   Lisa Winkle, Calvin
2008   Alison Kessler, Saint Mary's
2009   Carrie Snikkers, Hope

Grubb 02, Hall, 04, and Kessler 08 were all scoring champions when they won the mvp.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I've discussed this on the CCIW board, but wondered what you folks think.

To me, there is a definite difference between MVP and MOP (or POY).  To oversimplify just a bit, MVP boils down to a single question: if the player had a season-ending injury just before the conference season began, how much worse would the team have done?  (My hunch is that Hope is so loaded they still might have finished first absent ANY ONE player; would Calvin still be a serious contender absent Verkaik?)

MOP or POY is, to me, a more personal award.  Clearly team success is a factor (barring extreme cases, how outstanding could a player be if the team still finished in the basement), but it comes down (more) to stats and (individual) intangibles.  While an MVP should (nearly) always come from a serious contender, MOP could fairly readily come from a 5th or 6th place team.  Again to over-simplify, what single player would you most want to build a team around?  (That helps avoid the problem of what surrounding team do they currently have.)

Having seen none of the contenders, but based on box scores and comments here, for MVP I'd have to go with Verkaik; for MOP/POY it would be a helluva close call among Verkaik and the two Hope stars.

[Dark Knight]

I suspect that oldknight is right -- that Verkaik won't get the nod because she's a freshman. Psychologically that could easily make a difference to voters, even if it's not conscious.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I've discussed this on the CCIW board, but wondered what you folks think.

To me, there is a definite difference between MVP and MOP (or POY).  To oversimplify just a bit, MVP boils down to a single question: if the player had a season-ending injury just before the conference season began, how much worse would the team have done?  (My hunch is that Hope is so loaded they still might have finished first absent ANY ONE player; would Calvin still be a serious contender absent Verkaik?)

MOP or POY is, to me, a more personal award.  Clearly team success is a factor (barring extreme cases, how outstanding could a player be if the team still finished in the basement), but it comes down (more) to stats and (individual) intangibles.  While an MVP should (nearly) always come from a serious contender, MOP could fairly readily come from a 5th or 6th place team.  Again to over-simplify, what single player would you most want to build a team around?  (That helps avoid the problem of what surrounding team do they currently have.)

Having seen none of the contenders, but based on box scores and comments here, for MVP I'd have to go with Verkaik; for MOP/POY it would be a helluva close call among Verkaik and the two Hope stars.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and really have no argument with it.  My only question is whether the folks who vote on this share your specific definiton of these two awards. I'm not so sure they do - or that it's as clear cut in their minds as it is in yours.

[Hwbb]

I've discussed this on the CCIW board, but wondered what you folks think.

To me, there is a definite difference between MVP and MOP (or POY).  To oversimplify just a bit, MVP boils down to a single question: if the player had a season-ending injury just before the conference season began, how much worse would the team have done?  (My hunch is that Hope is so loaded they still might have finished first absent ANY ONE player; would Calvin still be a serious contender absent Verkaik?)

MOP or POY is, to me, a more personal award.  Clearly team success is a factor (barring extreme cases, how outstanding could a player be if the team still finished in the basement), but it comes down (more) to stats and (individual) intangibles.  While an MVP should (nearly) always come from a serious contender, MOP could fairly readily come from a 5th or 6th place team.  Again to over-simplify, what single player would you most want to build a team around?  (That helps avoid the problem of what surrounding team do they currently have.)

Having seen none of the contenders, but based on box scores and comments here, for MVP I'd have to go with Verkaik; for MOP/POY it would be a helluva close call among Verkaik and the two Hope stars.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and really have no argument with it.  My only question is whether the folks who vote on this share your specific definiton of these two awards. I'm not so sure they do - or that it's as clear cut in their minds as it is in yours.

Speaking of "the folks who vote"--when exactly will we all be told the results of that vote. In other words, when will the MIAA announce its MVP?

[Erm Schmigget]

Its MVP by name, but I'm not so sure they've stuck to strickly choosing the 'most valuable player' by definition and have treated it as more of a most outstanding player award.

Unlike on the men's side, the women have named several MVP's who did not win the conference championship.

2000     Lisa Hoekstra, Hope
2001   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2002   Niki Grubb, Kalamazoo
2003   Amanda Kerkstra, Hope
2004   Karen Hall, Alma
2005   Sarah Caskey, Albion
2006   Lisa Winkle, Calvin & Bria Ebels, Hope
2007   Lisa Winkle, Calvin
2008   Alison Kessler, Saint Mary's
2009   Carrie Snikkers, Hope

Grubb 02, Hall, 04, and Kessler 08 were all scoring champions when they won the mvp.

Nyemade Cooper was scoring champ in 2009.  Not arguing that she should have been MVP (I wonder if she was even considered).  It helps if your team doesn't go 0-fer.  Grubb's and Kessler's teams finished 2nd in their years; Hall's was 4th of 8 at 14-11 (7-7).

FWIW, I've never expressly stated that Verkaik shouldn't be the MVP.  I just feel that its presumptuous to say she has it all wrapped up.  Considering the point realist raises here, she may well get it.  However, as oldknight and Dark Knight brought up, her being a freshman may be the one thing that tips the scales away from her.  Any of the three mentioned lately are worthy candidates, for the reasons that have been expressed/argued/rehashed here.  I would not be shocked by who gets it if any of those three are chosen.

[realist]

I do not see where it tells us the class (fr, so, jr, or sr) of a previous mvp.  I cross referenced the All MIAA list to see how many times an mvp's name was on that list.  I  found 3 players that made All MIAA 4 years.  Behling (K) 86-89, Van Damme (AM) 95-98, and Lisa Winkle 04-07.  Behling was never MVP, and the other two are two time MVP's.  Winkle did share her mvp one year with Ebels.  The number of 3 time All MIAA is sizeable, and even more for 2 time All MIAA.  Many names appear only one time, and several even were mvp, and are listed only once.  Grubb from Kal. in 02 is the most recent example.  Was she a fr?
Unless I missed something it seems it takes an exceptional person to be All-MIAA 4 years in a row which by definition would mean All MIAA as a fr.  My guess is Ms. Snikkers last year as a so. making mvp was precedent setting, and I assume being on the championship team made her selection more viable.
At this point in time Ms. Verkaik's stats are equal to or better than Ms. Snikkers were a year ago.  Granted CV has logged more minutes than CS did, but one has to be careful with the arguement CS "would have done more stat wise" if she played more, and than turn around to argue CV's stats are what they are only "because she played more".
Historically the MIAA has been hesitant to make fr. All MIAA, and generally mvp has been the domain of jr's, and sr's.  To not make CV All MIAA this year is going to be extremely hard, and considering precedent (scoring & other stat. leader) plus playing on the second place team she seems a very viable mvp candidate.  

My prediction is co mvp's as it just makes sense like Ebels, and Winkle in 2006.  Greene and Verkiak as co mvp's, and Ms. Snikkers All MIAA.  The MIAA has been loathe (to it's credit imho) to punish previous winners who suffer injuries

With Hope's depth it is hard for players on that team to get the numbers necessary to merit consideration esp. early in their careers.  We each have our bias's, but I can't help but wonder if Ms. Snikkers would have had the performance as a fr. that CV has had this year if many Hope posters wouldn't have argued for her as All MIAA, and mvp back in 08.

[sac]

I've discussed this on the CCIW board, but wondered what you folks think.

To me, there is a definite difference between MVP and MOP (or POY).  To oversimplify just a bit, MVP boils down to a single question: if the player had a season-ending injury just before the conference season began, how much worse would the team have done?  (My hunch is that Hope is so loaded they still might have finished first absent ANY ONE player; would Calvin still be a serious contender absent Verkaik?)

MOP or POY is, to me, a more personal award.  Clearly team success is a factor (barring extreme cases, how outstanding could a player be if the team still finished in the basement), but it comes down (more) to stats and (individual) intangibles.  While an MVP should (nearly) always come from a serious contender, MOP could fairly readily come from a 5th or 6th place team.  Again to over-simplify, what single player would you most want to build a team around?  (That helps avoid the problem of what surrounding team do they currently have.)

Having seen none of the contenders, but based on box scores and comments here, for MVP I'd have to go with Verkaik; for MOP/POY it would be a helluva close call among Verkaik and the two Hope stars.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and really have no argument with it.  My only question is whether the folks who vote on this share your specific definiton of these two awards. I'm not so sure they do - or that it's as clear cut in their minds as it is in yours.

Speaking of "the folks who vote"--when exactly will we all be told the results of that vote. In other words, when will the MIAA announce its MVP?

Monday I believe......for both men and women

[sac]

The St. Mary's/Calvin semi-final should have video, you can find the link at miaa.org