WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Erm Schmigget]

Ok, Brownwood...over 1200 miles, which just goes further to prove FDF's point.



A couple pages back, SKOT posted the prioritized list of site-selecting criteria from the 2009 tounament handbook.  I don't imagine it has changed much.

1. Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations

Both intstitutions boast top-notch facilities for the event.  There's no reason that the Shirk souldn't be considered a prime site to host.  But the DeVos Fieldhouse is also a superb facility, which the NCAA knows for reasons I don't think I need to explain here.  One glaring difference is capacity.  See below for more on this.  Another consideration here is lodging.  The NCAA requires possible host sites to inform them of other events happening locally that might affect available lodging.  Holland hosts a swim meet that weekend.  (Not alot of rooms needed for those involved--low attendance sport.)  Bloomington hosts more than a couple sports tounaments and events that weekend, as was discovered while trying to book rooms there today.  (I'm too tired right now to remember specifics...or look them up.)

2. Geographical location (which may include such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility and transportation costs);

Rotation of sites...  Well, we know Hope and IWU both hosted this past weekend, and we know where the Final Four will be held.  So, the decision here went something like this: We can let one site host two in a row or the other site host three in a row.  Considering that we want to rotate sites, the obvious choice is to choose the site that will make them hosts all three weekends.    Nice job.  Pat yourselves on the back.  Weather: expected to be in the 50s in Holland.  Check.  Accessibility: just a few miles off I-196 (oh, and Tulip City Airport, which Marymount could easily charter a flight to, is between I-196 and Hope).  Check.  Transportation costs:  Probably a touch more, but I can't believe by much.

3. Seeding

IWU is seeded higher than Hope.  Granted.

4. Attendance history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necesessary to assure fiscal responsibility

The Shirk is listed on d3hoops at 2600 seats, while DeVos is listed at 3400.  IWU average attendance at home, 613; Hope, 1138.  Which seems more fiscally responsible here?  And wouldn't additional revenue offset travel costs?


One (and a quarter...maybe) out of four of your own criteria ain't bad, NCAA.  Keep up the good work.  

[Pat Coleman]

It's been a long time since I've had to say this, but you can't buy a sectional simply by putting more bodies in the seats. This isn't a D-I bowl game or an NAIA playoff game.

You're also overstating, I believe, criteria No. 1. This is not really "who has more seats" -- it's "does the building have more than the minimum." It's a yes/no question. Answer for both is yes.

Selling 500 more seats for a guarantee of only one session is not a significant financial boost for an event that loses hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And why would it be that all criteria must be weighted equally? When both facilities meet minimum requirements, are available and the number of required flights is the same, the higher seed seems to win out on a consistent basis.

[Titan Q]

Ok, Brownwood...over 1200 miles, which just goes further to prove FDF's point.



A couple pages back, SKOT posted the prioritized list of site-selecting criteria from the 2009 tounament handbook.  I don't imagine it has changed much.

1. Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations

Both intstitutions boast top-notch facilities for the event.  There's no reason that the Shirk souldn't be considered a prime site to host.  But the DeVos Fieldhouse is also a superb facility, which the NCAA knows for reasons I don't think I need to explain here.  One glaring difference is capacity.  See below for more on this.  Another consideration here is lodging.  The NCAA requires possible host sites to inform them of other events happening locally that might affect available lodging.  Holland hosts a swim meet that weekend.  (Not alot of rooms needed for those involved--low attendance sport.)  Bloomington hosts more than a couple sports tounaments and events that weekend, as was discovered while trying to book rooms there today.  (I'm too tired right now to remember specifics...or look them up.)

2. Geographical location (which may include such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility and transportation costs);

Rotation of sites...  Well, we know Hope and IWU both hosted this past weekend, and we know where the Final Four will be held.  So, the decision here went something like this: We can let one site host two in a row or the other site host three in a row.  Considering that we want to rotate sites, the obvious choice is to choose the site that will make them hosts all three weekends.    Nice job.  Pat yourselves on the back.  Weather: expected to be in the 50s in Holland.  Check.  Accessibility: just a few miles off I-196 (oh, and Tulip City Airport, which Marymount could easily charter a flight to, is between I-196 and Hope).  Check.  Transportation costs:  Probably a touch more, but I can't believe by much.

3. Seeding

IWU is seeded higher than Hope.  Granted.

4. Attendance history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necesessary to assure fiscal responsibility

The Shirk is listed on d3hoops at 2600 seats, while DeVos is listed at 3400.  IWU average attendance at home, 613; Hope, 1138.  Which seems more fiscally responsible here?  And wouldn't additional revenue offset travel costs?


One (and a quarter...maybe) out of four of your own criteria ain't bad, NCAA.  Keep up the good work.  

Erm, where were you when the men's Sectional in 2006 (Illinois Wesleyan, Augustana, Puget Sound, Lawrence) was awarded to Lawrence and their 100-year old, 1000 seat gym, instead of IWU's Shirk Center?

Or 2003 when Illinois Wesleyan, UW-Oshkosh, Hampden-Sydney, and Randolph-Macon landed at R-M's gym, which is not even in the ballpark of the Shirk Center?

Or in 2001 when Illinois Wesleyan, Elmhurst, Lewis & Clark, and Chicago were sent to Chicago's awful Henry Crown Fieldhouse, instead of the Shirk Center?


The common thread?  The teams that ended up with these men's Sectionals were all the highest seeds remaining.

[Erm Schmigget]

I limited my vent to this thread because this is the MIAA thread, not the CCIW thread or the National Tournament thread, for example.  I don't expect too many sympathetic ears outside of the MIAA.  

Pat, criteria #1 has to do with more than just the sports facility...it also has to do with "other necessary accomodations".  Hotel rooms were scarce already yesterday at the time of the announcement.  I'm just looking at the facts and considering them (aloud) without regard to how the NCAA weights them.  

I'm not asking to be confirmed or consoled.  Sometimes a person just has to vent, and discussion boards like this are a good place to do just that.  TQ, if you had asked me where I stood on your issues at those times, I probably would have said, right next to you.  But then, you didn't ask me.    

I was done venting overnight, and have moved on.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Speaking only for myself (but I think most seasoned Hope posters and fans would agree). I understand why IWU is hosting this weekend in light of the 4 criteria. Do I think DeVos is a superior facility and would draw higher attendance? Yes.  But Shirk is a perfectly nice D3 arena and its not as if the gym will be empty.

I think the big frustration is the fact IWU is hosting three consecutive weekends. I recognize this is a perfect storm of events and it may not happen again for 20 years (see Hope 1990) but I strongly believe no team, men or women (although as long as the men's Final Four is in Salem it can't happen), should be able to win it all without leaving home.

[Erm Schmigget]

The NCAA has become alot more sophisticated in their organization of the tounament.  In 1990, the women's Final Four site was not predetermined.  It was up to the schools participating to make their case for hosting the games.  I was at that championship game, and distinctly remember that Hope was not even allowed to print the words "Final Four on the tickets...or any other printed material.  The NCAA told Hope that the phrase was copywrited and made them change the wording to "Final Tour".  

[HopeConvert]

I'm inclined to believe that the frustration of Dutch fans really results from 2008 and having to travel to Howard Payne and play them on their home floor. I'm guessing that most of us believe those two teams were pretty even (or that Hope was slightly superior), and that the home floor advantage was likely the difference in deciding the outcome. Most of us also believe that should have been a final four game, not an elite 8 one (even if, or maybe especially if, this would have given us home floor advantage). The result of that game has us feeling that the NCAA "owes us one." This is really not a defensible position, I'll admit. It would be unreasonable to suggest that the NCAA keeps a ledger of teams they've jobbed in the past and look for ways to compensate in the present. But being a fan isn't always, or frequently, about being reasonable.

[KnightSlappy]

I strongly believe no team... should be able to win it all without leaving home.

Doesn't the Hope team still have something to say about this? It sounds like y'all have conceded the game already on the basis of home court!

Just suck it up, drive to Bloomington, and win the sectional. That way, IWU won't be able to play three weekends in a row on their home floor. 

[Erm Schmigget]

I strongly believe no team... should be able to win it all without leaving home.

Doesn't the Hope team still have something to say about this? It sounds like y'all have conceded the game already on the basis of home court!

Just suck it up, drive to Bloomington, and win the section. That way, IWU won't be able to play three weekends in a row on their home floor. 

Agreed, and +k.  This is the attitude to adopt now, and I'm sure this is where most of us are at this point...especially Coach Mo and the team.  I won't be able to go on Friday (too busy at work), but I'll be making the drive on Saturday.  (I'm proceeding with the notion that Hope will continue their winning ways, and make it to the Elite Eight.     )

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I strongly believe no team... should be able to win it all without leaving home.

Doesn't the Hope team still have something to say about this? It sounds like y'all have conceded the game already on the basis of home court!

Just suck it up, drive to Bloomington, and win the sectional. That way, IWU won't be able to play three weekends in a row on their home floor. 

I've had enough time to vent, that I agree.  It is what it is, but so what.  Every team coming into this regional has issues to deal with:

Marymount - playing 758 mile from home sucks and greatly reduces your fan base

Stevens Point - Not as far away, but their men are hosting a regional as well, so they may not get their normal fan support

IWU - Their men are playing at UWSP, which will take away some of their support.  They are also on Spring Break - taking their students away.  And they have the pressure of knowing there are no excuses for not getting to the last weekend when you get to play at home the whole way.

Hope - Fanantic fans (redundant, I know) who, despite feeling shafted, will show up and loudly support their team - it is only a 4 hour drive to Bloomington.  Not to mention, the most talented and deep team in this regional (with maybe a little extra fire over the hosting issues of the last 3 years).  OK, that's my opinion, but I haven't seen anything to prove me wrong.

[Titan Q]

I was done venting overnight, and have moved on.

We all want our team to get a fair shake, and often the way the Division III tournament is setup, things just don't seem quite right.  Venting for a day is totally understandble...then it's time to go play basketball.

In following IWU's men's team over the years, I've come to love the road games vs great teams.  Games likes these...

In the last 10 years, Illinois Wesleyan has met 5 #1 or #2-ranked teams (D3hoops.com Top 25) in the tournament...

* March 6, 2010 - IWU 75 (#1) Wash U 70 (@ Wash U) - Round 2
* March 10, 2006 - IWU 63 (#1) Lawrence 59 (@ Lawrence) - Round 3
* March 6, 2004 - IWU 77 (#2) Hanover 67 (@ Hanover) - Round 2
* March 8, 2003 - IWU 85 (#2) Wash U 73 (@ Wash U) - Round 2
* March 10, 2001 - IWU 77 (#1) Chicago 68 (@ Chicago) - Round 4


5-0 in those games - all on the other team's floor - is pretty impressive.

(These pairings - most in Rounds 2/3 - are also the reason I can't sympathize with fans who think their team has a tough road.)

In every game listed above, I watched the Titans put all of the pressure on the home team - either by executing well early and building a lead, or by hanging around and then making a run.  (In games like this, I feel like all of the pressure is on the home team.)  Hope has that same opportunity should they face IWU at the Shirk Center.

Winning at home is great, but there is just something special about winning on the road.  Hope has the opportunity to shine this weekend in Bloomington.

[wiz]

To be a national champion, one should be able to defeat any team, any place.

Can we now put the setting behind us and start focusing on the teams?  In my mind, there are four really good teams that will be playing ant IWU next weekend.  For those in the know, what are your thoughts on the matchups and what will each team need to focus on to win this thing?  I don't have a horse in this race but it would be nice to hear some basketball talk again.

[Erm Schmigget]

I was done venting overnight, and have moved on.

We all want our team to get a fair shake, and often the way the Division III tournament is setup, things just don't seem quite right.  Venting for a day is totally understandble...then it's time to go play basketball.

In following IWU's men's team over the years, I've come to love the road games vs great teams.  Games likes these...

In the last 10 years, Illinois Wesleyan has met 5 #1 or #2-ranked teams (D3hoops.com Top 25) in the tournament...

* March 6, 2010 - IWU 75 (#1) Wash U 70 (@ Wash U) - Round 2
* March 10, 2006 - IWU 63 (#1) Lawrence 59 (@ Lawrence) - Round 3
* March 6, 2004 - IWU 77 (#2) Hanover 67 (@ Hanover) - Round 2
* March 8, 2003 - IWU 85 (#2) Wash U 73 (@ Wash U) - Round 2
* March 10, 2001 - IWU 77 (#1) Chicago 68 (@ Chicago) - Round 4


5-0 in those games - all on the other team's floor - is pretty impressive.

(These pairings - most in Rounds 2/3 - are also the reason I can't sympathize with fans who think their team has a tough road.)

In every game listed above, I watched the Titans put all of the pressure on the home team - either by executing well early and building a lead, or by hanging around and then making a run.  (In games like this, I feel like all of the pressure is on the home team.)  Hope has that same opportunity should they face IWU at the Shirk Center.

Winning at home is great, but there is just something special about winning on the road.  Hope has the opportunity to shine this weekend in Bloomington.

To quote wiz, "To be a national champion, one should be able to defeat any team, any place."  Hope has shown in the past (2006) that they can do just that.  My HOPE is, they will take the opportunity to do that not just this weekend, but next as well.

GO HOPE!!!

[jspiii]

I've been told the Hope ticket office is trying to put together a bus package for the Sectional in Bloomington this weekend. I presume this would include a 1 night stay. Details to follow when I hear them.

[hope1]

cool thank  you i am instreted  of going