WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Erm Schmigget]

Calvin's 19 TOs per game don't look so bad next to Albion's 19.3 and Hope's 21.8.  I can't say much about Calvin's or Albion's, but I know that several of Hope's this year have come from long passes on fast breaks going too long.  Also, the opponent's TOs per game look like this: Calvin 18.6, Albion 23.3, Hope 30.8.  I think I would be more concerned with the negative TO margin, looking at Calvin's numbers.

Being agressive with the ball will cause some TOs, but it can also set up more scoring opportunities.  In Hope's case they are also aggressive going after the ball on defense, and that has produced their high positive TO margin.  It can also mean more fouls, but with Coach Mo's system, they spread the fouls around to more players, so they can usually afford more.  (Their FTs-made margin is -4.2, while Calvin's is even.)  Also, Hope's assist/TO ratio is at 0.9, while Calvin and Albion are both at 0.6.

I wouldn't be too worried about Calvin's TOs per game since it compares well with other conference contenders.  It's the TO margin that would concern me more.

But then, the season is still so young...  

[sac]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.



All 3 women's games have been postponed due to weather.  MIAA.org has the makeup dates

[Dark Knight]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

Couple of points - first I don't think your presumption is necessarily correct.  Longer possessions are also more likely to be a set offensive play, short possessions (time wise) occur on fast breaks or when you are pushing the ball up the floor.  These are more likely to lead to turnovers due to the very nature of the play.

Secondly, I have a spreadsheet that is used to calculate Team Efficiency (it's a well known method for calculating this - not my invention).  Anyway, part of it calculates the number of possessions a team has had (based on a formula that uses FG attempts, Off Reb, Turnovers, and FT attempts).  Using that formula:

Calvin is averaging 71.8 possessions per game. 
Hope is averaging 81.5 possessions per game. 

[beltsh97]

Flying Dutch, any way you could show how that is calculated? I would like to use that for my own team. Thanks

[oldknight]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

Since an uptempo game leads to more total possessions, sac's comment seems to presuppose that uptempo basketball leads to a greater likelihood of turnovers (per possession) than does a more deliberate style. My intuition tells me that's probably correct but I'm unaware of any research to support this conclusion. 

[Dark Knight]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

Since an uptempo game leads to more total possessions, sac's comment seems to presuppose that uptempo basketball leads to a greater likelihood of turnovers (per possession) than does a more deliberate style. My intuition tells me that's probably correct but I'm unaware of any research to support this conclusion. 

Ah, a basketball liberal, a strict constructionist only when it comes to law and places of residence?

Sac said "more possessions," hence "more opportunities to make turnovers" -- not faster play, hence...

[oldknight]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

Since an uptempo game leads to more total possessions, sac's comment seems to presuppose that uptempo basketball leads to a greater likelihood of turnovers (per possession) than does a more deliberate style. My intuition tells me that's probably correct but I'm unaware of any research to support this conclusion. 

Ah, a basketball liberal, a strict constructionist only when it comes to law and places of residence?

Sac said "more possessions," hence "more opportunities to make turnovers" -- not faster play, hence...

That's good. That's very good.

Sac's comments were somewhat ambigous and left a lot to interpretation, thereby requiring the implementaion of additional rules of statutory interpretation. The statement "more possessions per game" followed by the conclusion "more opportunities to make turnovers" is a riddle than cannot be solved solely by using the "plain meaning" rules of strict constructionism. This is why I used the qualifying term "presuppose."To draw an analogy from a former Secretary of Defense in a different context, "You go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had." Maybe I should have been clearer myself by writing "seems to presuppose." Good grief, what's this board coming to anyway? You've practically gotta be a lawyer to express yourself these days.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Flying Dutch, any way you could show how that is calculated? I would like to use that for my own team. Thanks

Sure - the part of the Efficiency calculation used to calculate possessions is:

0.96 * (FGA - OR + TO + (0.475 * FTA))

where
FGA = Field Goals Attempted
OR = Offensive Rebounds
TO = Turnovers
FTA = Free Throw Attempts

For my comparison, I took the result and divided by the number of games played to achieve a per game average.

[beltsh97]

Thanks

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Being nothing close to a lawyer - let me just add a common sense comment   

Seems to me that this whole thing could be summed up by looking at what percentage of a teams possessions end in turnovers.

Calvin - 26.46%
Hope - 26.75%

[sac]

http://ebastats.com/

most of my knowledge of basketball stat formulas comes from this site, haven't been there in a long time and don't remember how usefull it is.  I think they removed their formulas a long time ago.

[Dark Knight]

I would bet Hope has more possesions per game, in other words more opportunities to make turnovers.

I'm trying to decide if this makes sense, and I'm still unconvinced.

Presumably opportunities for turnovers depend more on how much time you have the ball, not how many possessions you have. Two teams that play fast could each have many more possessions but an equal amount of time (and ball-handling) to make turnover opportunities.

On the other hand, if Hope plays more of an uptempo game than their opponents, then Hope would have less time of possession, hence less opportunity for turnovers.

Since an uptempo game leads to more total possessions, sac's comment seems to presuppose that uptempo basketball leads to a greater likelihood of turnovers (per possession) than does a more deliberate style. My intuition tells me that's probably correct but I'm unaware of any research to support this conclusion. 

Ah, a basketball liberal, a strict constructionist only when it comes to law and places of residence?

Sac said "more possessions," hence "more opportunities to make turnovers" -- not faster play, hence...

That's good. That's very good.

Sac's comments were somewhat ambigous and left a lot to interpretation, thereby requiring the implementaion of additional rules of statutory interpretation. The statement "more possessions per game" followed by the conclusion "more opportunities to make turnovers" is a riddle than cannot be solved solely by using the "plain meaning" rules of strict constructionism. This is why I used the qualifying term "presuppose."To draw an analogy from a former Secretary of Defense in a different context, "You go to war with the army you have, not the one you wish you had." Maybe I should have been clearer myself by writing "seems to presuppose." Good grief, what's this board coming to anyway? You've practically gotta be a lawyer to express yourself these days.

[Dark Knight]

Being nothing close to a lawyer - let me just add a common sense comment   

Seems to me that this whole thing could be summed up by looking at what percentage of a teams possessions end in turnovers.

Calvin - 26.46%
Hope - 26.75%

Hmmm, very close. That's interesting.

Now, is it possible to compute turnovers per minute of possession?

[sac]

Being nothing close to a lawyer - let me just add a common sense comment   

Seems to me that this whole thing could be summed up by looking at what percentage of a teams possessions end in turnovers.

Calvin - 26.46%
Hope - 26.75%

Hmmm, very close. That's interesting.

Now, is it possible to compute turnovers per minute of possession?

not likely

Also just because you are getting more possessions per game doesn't necessarily mean you are playing at a faster pace.  You may just be shooting earlier more frequently in the shot clock sequence or you're forcing the other team to turn the ball over more frequently.

FWIW, I do believe the Hope women push the ball up court faster and with more frequency than the average D3 womens team.