WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Dark Knight]

Calvin had a 28 pt. lead 4 times in the 2nd half.
Verkiak 15 pts. 9 rebounds, and 4 blocks in 21 minutes.

I'll see your Verkaik, and raise you a Snikkers

15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals in 17 minutes   

Then again, Snikkers took 14 shots in those 17 minutes to score her 15 points. Verkaik scored her 15 points with only 10 shots. That's 1.5 points per shot vs. 1.1.

[KnightSlappy]

The right pick for this season is Greene. She’s had the MIAA’s most productive season

Really? You don't say much to convince me of that, Alan.

Verkaik more than doubled Greene in scoring average at 18.5 points per MIAA game to 8.3

Verkaik also has grabbed three more rebounds per game

Verkaik is also the MIAA’s best shotblocker, by far.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Calvin had a 28 pt. lead 4 times in the 2nd half.
Verkiak 15 pts. 9 rebounds, and 4 blocks in 21 minutes.

I'll see your Verkaik, and raise you a Snikkers

15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals in 17 minutes   

Then again, Snikkers took 14 shots in those 17 minutes to score her 15 points. Verkaik scored her 15 points with only 10 shots. That's 1.5 points per shot vs. 1.1.

You're right of course - forgive me for having the audacity of even thinking of typing the name of any other player.

For any new posters reading this, let me welcome you to the "Bow at the feet of Carrisa Verkaik" board.       
            

[Dark Knight]

Calvin had a 28 pt. lead 4 times in the 2nd half.
Verkiak 15 pts. 9 rebounds, and 4 blocks in 21 minutes.

I'll see your Verkaik, and raise you a Snikkers

15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals in 17 minutes    

Then again, Snikkers took 14 shots in those 17 minutes to score her 15 points. Verkaik scored her 15 points with only 10 shots. That's 1.5 points per shot vs. 1.1.

You're right of course - forgive me for having the audacity of even thinking of typing the name of any other player.

For any new posters reading this, let me welcome you to the "Bow at the feet of Carrisa Verkaik" board.      
           

Oh dear, I seem to have caused offense by raising a valid counter-argument. Sorry about that!  

[realist]

                                       |---TOTAL---| |---3-PTS---|               |----REBOUNDS----|
## Player              GP-GS  Min--Avg  FG-FGA   Pct 3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA   Pct  Off Def  Tot  Avg  PF FO   A  TO Blk Stl  Pts  Avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 Carrie Snikkers.... 18-17  322 17.9  87-176  .494  11-37   .297  39-55   .709   39  88  127  7.1  20  0  11  24  51  35  224 12.4
04 Philana Greene..... 26-26  544 20.9  97-192  .505   3-10   .300  36-53   .679   72  81  153  5.9  31  0  85  60  19  87  233  9.0
32 Carissa VerKaik.... 26-26  681 26.2 189-328  .576  10-21   .476  90-109  .826   78 170  248  9.5  42  1  39  64  93  11  478 18.4

Decide for yourself which player you would want on your team.  Me, selfish oaf that I am, want all three.  



     

[KnightSlappy]

The 'Teletype' function has become a good friend of mine. Makes monospaced tables easier to read.

                                      |---TOTAL---| |---3-PTS---|               |----REBOUNDS----|
## Player              GP-GS  Min--Avg  FG-FGA   Pct 3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA   Pct  Off Def  Tot  Avg  PF FO   A  TO Blk Stl  Pts  Avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 Carrie Snikkers.... 18-17  322 17.9  87-176  .494  11-37   .297  39-55   .709   39  88  127  7.1  20  0  11  24  51  35  224 12.4
04 Philana Greene..... 26-26  544 20.9  97-192  .505   3-10   .300  36-53   .679   72  81  153  5.9  31  0  85  60  19  87  233  9.0
32 Carissa VerKaik.... 26-26  681 26.2 189-328  .576  10-21   .476  90-109  .826   78 170  248  9.5  42  1  39  64  93  11  478 18.4

...and for the record, I'll take Verkaik especially since I get three more years out of her.

IMO, the MVP discussion starts and ends with only one name being discussed this season.

[realist]

KS:  Thanks for introducing me to my new BFF teletype.

[Hwbb]

Calvin had a 28 pt. lead 4 times in the 2nd half.
Verkiak 15 pts. 9 rebounds, and 4 blocks in 21 minutes.

I'll see your Verkaik, and raise you a Snikkers

15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals in 17 minutes   

They are both really, really good players.  No one player, however, has had more individual impact on her team's success than Carissa.  She is a game changer and the most worthy player for league MVP this year.  I wouldn't be disappointed if the title is shared, but excluding Verkaik would be gross negligence.

Hmmm, quite the kerfuffle the last hour or so. I wonder if where you stand on the MVP thing depends on (a) what team you support, and/or (b) how you value and prioritize certain statistics. Scoring, rebounds, blocked shots--those are traditionally the most public and pointed-to of statistics, and most often the criteria for MVP, and Ms. Verkaik stands out in all three. It's more difficult to measure the specific value of a steal or an assist, areas where Ms. Greene stands out, even though there is real and tanglible value to both. Or the value of being the best defender on a team its coach calls one of his best defensive teams ever. Or even the issue of team leadership--oh, my goodness, how in the world do you judge that? Are the most visible statistics the most important? If so, then the argument for Ms. Verkaik is  pretty solid. I'm admittedly still not as convinced. In a team sport, some of those other, "softer" categories still seem awfully important. I'll quickly agree that both are really, really good players. I'm not yet ready to sign onto "most worthy" or "gross negligence," however; I don't think it's that obvious.

For what it's worth, however, I would cast my vote for Mantel (over McClary and Bunn) for men's MVP, in part based on some of those same intangibles.

[oldknight]

Last year, on the men's side, Jesse Reimink had the best overall stats in the conference and he won the award even though his team finished 2nd in the league race. I couldn't complain because his importance to his team was undeniable. This year, Verkaik's impact and her stats are just as dominating but I suspect she won't win--not because she's not worthy but because she's a freshmen. I know it's not a lifetime achievement award but being a key player on the league's best team for 4 years raises your profile and Greene is a key player. Although Carissa's stats are better, Greene would score more if her team wasn't so doggone balanced.

The MVP award would go to Snikkers for the second straight year but she simply missed too many games. She only played in 10 conference games and a couple of those were games where she played less than 10 minutes. Since the award is based on results in league play, all that missed time eliminates Snikkers. But when Hope needed her production in a tough game, she showed everyone who that person is when she "Carried" her team to victory at Adrian on Saturday.

[Erm Schmigget]

The right pick for this season is Greene. She's had the MIAA's most productive season

Really? You don't say much to convince me of that, Alan.

Verkaik more than doubled Greene in scoring average at 18.5 points per MIAA game to 8.3

Verkaik also has grabbed three more rebounds per game

Verkaik is also the MIAA's best shotblocker, by far.

To be fair to Babbit ( ), if you put the quotes back into context, and use the full sentences, they make a bit more sense.

"Verkaik more than doubled Greene in scoring..." is continued with "...but she plays in a system that is focused around her and gets to play five more minutes per game."  This is a point some of us not wearing maroon and gold glasses have raised here before.  He goes on to point out that "Hope utilizes a deeper bench and goes [to] it more as it has beaten MIAA opponents by a league-best 22.1 points per game — nine more than Calvin — further limiting opportunities for Greene."

"Verkaik also has grabbed three more rebounds per game..." ends with "...but she is nearly dead-even with
Greene on the offensive glass."  That's pretty good considering the disparity in the amount of time each of them spends in the game, and the slim difference in their sooting percentage.  (Remember, going deep into the bench more likely means taking out those who have earned starting spots by being better scorers, too.)

For the third point, he goes to the sometimes-suspect comparing of different statistical categories:
"Verkaik is also the MIAA's best shotblocker, by far.  Greene, however, dominates three other categories over Verkaik— assists, assist-to-turnover ratio and steals."  That brings up the point that these are two very different players, so straight comparisons of like statistical categories overlooks what each player can really bring to the table.

It's still an open debate, and it will be interesting to see who gets the honor.  The arguements for Greene or Verkaik are compelling, when a clear light is shone on both.  I have to admit, though, that my orange and blue glasses may be playing some role in whom I might choose.    As for wanting all three of the players on your team, realist, two out of three ain't bad.    

[Erm Schmigget]

And by the way, to the karma fairy who is hitting me once a day for the past week, even when I don't post, if you have something to say, grow up and just say it.  Or if you're really that big a chicken, just send your thoughts in a personal note and get it over with.      

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Calvin had a 28 pt. lead 4 times in the 2nd half.
Verkiak 15 pts. 9 rebounds, and 4 blocks in 21 minutes.

I'll see your Verkaik, and raise you a Snikkers

15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals in 17 minutes    

Then again, Snikkers took 14 shots in those 17 minutes to score her 15 points. Verkaik scored her 15 points with only 10 shots. That's 1.5 points per shot vs. 1.1.

You're right of course - forgive me for having the audacity of even thinking of typing the name of any other player.

For any new posters reading this, let me welcome you to the "Bow at the feet of Carrisa Verkaik" board.      
           

Oh dear, I seem to have caused offense by raising a valid counter-argument. Sorry about that!  

I have no problem with counter-arguments.  I'm also aware that you can make statistics say whatever you want (I have an example below) 

The point I was trying to make is that I've just grown tired of the vast majority of posts being about a single player.  Is she a phenomenal player, yes, but I suspect the rest of the Calvin team has also contributed to their success (a great season by any measure).  In reading this board you would never know they existed. 

<an example of a way to make the statistics support Carrie's contribution as better>
Point per minute

CS - .882
CV - .714

[KnightSlappy]

Philana      Carissa
21.4   min   26.0
8.3    ppg   15.8
5.3    reb   8.6
3.2    asst  1.3
3.8    stl   0.3
0.7    blk   3.8

We can attempt compare statistics by turning these numbers into points by inventing the formula:

Effective Points = points + (2 x assists) + ([(reb - (reb x TeamReb%)) + (blk x TeamReb%) + steals] x TeamEffFG%)

This calculation gives:

PG: 20.5 effective points per game
CV: 26.1 effective points per game

And adjusting PG's time up to 26.0 minutes per game would give her 24.9 effective points per game. Much closer to CV.

...And I don't mean to imply that statistics are the sole determining factor of the MVP race, just thought it would be interesting to try to compare stats.

...And I am aware that this formula probably grossly overvalues assists.

[oldknight]

As for wanting all three of the players on your team, realist, two out of three ain't bad.    

Sounds like Erm's ready to change his board name to Meatloaf.

[KnightSlappy]

"Verkaik more than doubled Greene in scoring..." is continued with "...but she plays in a system that is focused around her and gets to play five more minutes per game."  This is a point some of us not wearing maroon and gold glasses have raised here before.  He goes on to point out that "Hope utilizes a deeper bench and goes [to] it more as it has beaten MIAA opponents by a league-best 22.1 points per game — nine more than Calvin — further limiting opportunities for Greene."

So what you're saying here is that Philana is less valuable to her team than Carissa is. Her value on Hope's squad is diminished because they have a deeper bench and have more scoring options.

Take away Carissa, and what is Calvin's record?

Take away Philana, and what is Hope's record?