WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Enginerd]

Rose-Hulman played Hope and DePauw on back-to-back weekends so I had an opportunity to see both teams play - Depauw in person and Hope on-line.

Completely different teams - both class acts with outstanding coaching. DePauw is possibly the most disciplined team and executes at the highest level I've seen in a long time - and are every bit RHIT's equal defensively and on the boards (two of RHIT's signature strengths).

Hope is ridiculously long, tall, and athletic - with perhaps one of the best Freshman classes in Division III women's basketball in a long time, and they will lose fewer than a dozen games in their entire career at Hope. In fact, RHIT played an exhibition game at Eastern Illinois University a week prior to Hope - and I was told by someone who saw both games that Hope had more Division I players than Eastern Illinois!

Regardless how things shake out this season for Hope via regional rankings and their NCAA draw - the combination of talent and coaching are going to make their fans very happy for a long time.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Enginerd (love the name by the way) - thank you for sharing your perspective! 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

That SOS is basically not a difference. That SOS is a wash. .009 is not even measurable in the eyes of the committee. So consider it all equal except for the better WL% for DePauw. There are also other criteria like comparable opponents, but I haven't looked there. Most likely those are equal in straight Ws, but they may look at those games more deeply.

OK, I get that - just was confused by Hope being ranked #1 the first week, then week 2 & 3 it's DePauw.  Ultimately it really doesn't matter anyway, just curious.

Well the big difference between Week 1 and the rest is that week 1 doesn't have vRRO considered - it can't. In just this week's data sheet, DePauw is 4-1 vRRO and Hope is 2-1. That could be playing a significant role in this conversation. I honestly was surprised Hope was #1 in the first week, I felt they should have been 2 or 3. Remember also, Hope is 21-1 in the eyes of the committee in the primary criteria and DePauw is 23-1.... that will make up for the SOS difference of .524 (DePauw) and . 552 (Hope) ... which actually is inside the .030 equals two games comparison.

Just on that ... I would be giving it to DePauw as well.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

That SOS is basically not a difference. That SOS is a wash. .009 is not even measurable in the eyes of the committee. So consider it all equal except for the better WL% for DePauw. There are also other criteria like comparable opponents, but I haven't looked there. Most likely those are equal in straight Ws, but they may look at those games more deeply.

OK, I get that - just was confused by Hope being ranked #1 the first week, then week 2 & 3 it's DePauw.  Ultimately it really doesn't matter anyway, just curious.

Well the big difference between Week 1 and the rest is that week 1 doesn't have vRRO considered - it can't. In just this week's data sheet, DePauw is 4-1 vRRO and Hope is 2-1. That could be playing a significant role in this conversation. I honestly was surprised Hope was #1 in the first week, I felt they should have been 2 or 3. Remember also, Hope is 21-1 in the eyes of the committee in the primary criteria and DePauw is 23-1.... that will make up for the SOS difference of .524 (DePauw) and . 552 (Hope) ... which actually is inside the .030 equals two games comparison.

Just on that ... I would be giving it to DePauw as well.

Dave,

I'm very aware that the vRRO is not in play week one - but when it did become part of the rankings, they both had/and still have the exact same vRRO record, which is 2-1.  That confused me since it was the only change and yet the rankings switched. 

I'm not sure what data sheet you are looking at, but the one linked in the regional rankings on d3hoops (dated 2/19/18) has them both with 2-1 vRRO this week, and their SOS are .531 (DePauw) and .540 (Hope).  If the data you shared is actually the correct data then of course the vRRO makes sense to cause a change.   

NOTE: I noticed earlier that the mens data sheet links were showing last years data

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I have to get back you on the data... good chance I might be reading last week's (not sure how), but I will get back to you.

THe NCAA sometimes screws around the links. I need to figure out what is going on. Soon as I clear those things up, I will look at it again and let you know. However, I need to go pick up my kids and get Hoopsville ready to air. Have some time after that, before the show, I will be sure to return to this.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

OK - so I was looking at the wrong data sheets, sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.

I have DePauw at 24-1 and Hope 23-1 - a wash.
I have DePauw at .531 and Hope at .540 for the SOS - a wash.
Both teams are 2-1 vRRO - which is a wash on paper, but DePauw has a win over Rose-Hulman and Wis. Lutheran (5th and 6th this week) and a loss to WashU; Hope has wins over Trine and Rose-Hulman and a lose to Trine ... I'm going to give this to DePauw for the fact they have three teams in that group versus just two for Hope.
Comparable opponents:
- Trine: Hope is 1-1; DePauw 1-0
- That's all I've got apparently.

No head-to-head.

I think it is really close. I am not sure what the non-conference SOS numbers are... it could very well be they went to secondary criteria and maybe that gave the nod to DePauw. If I am splitting hairs, I am still giving that to DePauw thanks to the non-loss to Trine and the extra (three) opponents in the vRRO.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

OK - so I was looking at the wrong data sheets, sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.

I have DePauw at 24-1 and Hope 23-1 - a wash.
I have DePauw at .531 and Hope at .540 for the SOS - a wash.
Both teams are 2-1 vRRO - which is a wash on paper, but DePauw has a win over Rose-Hulman and Wis. Lutheran (5th and 6th this week) and a loss to WashU; Hope has wins over Trine and Rose-Hulman and a lose to Trine ... I'm going to give this to DePauw for the fact they have three teams in that group versus just two for Hope.
Comparable opponents:
- Trine: Hope is 1-1; DePauw 1-0
- That's all I've got apparently.

No head-to-head.

I think it is really close. I am not sure what the non-conference SOS numbers are... it could very well be they went to secondary criteria and maybe that gave the nod to DePauw. If I am splitting hairs, I am still giving that to DePauw thanks to the non-loss to Trine and the extra (three) opponents in the vRRO.

I really don't want to continue to drag this out - as I said earlier the order is not terribly significant to me  - but I am interested in the why based on the facts.  DePauw is not 1-0 vs Trine - they are 0-0 - never played them this year.  And what three extra opponents in the vRRO - both teams are 2-1?

[HOPEful]

OK - so I was looking at the wrong data sheets, sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.

I have DePauw at 24-1 and Hope 23-1 - a wash.
I have DePauw at .531 and Hope at .540 for the SOS - a wash.
Both teams are 2-1 vRRO - which is a wash on paper, but DePauw has a win over Rose-Hulman and Wis. Lutheran (5th and 6th this week) and a loss to WashU; Hope has wins over Trine and Rose-Hulman and a lose to Trine ... I'm going to give this to DePauw for the fact they have three teams in that group versus just two for Hope.
Comparable opponents:
- Trine: Hope is 1-1; DePauw 1-0
- That's all I've got apparently.

No head-to-head.

I think it is really close. I am not sure what the non-conference SOS numbers are... it could very well be they went to secondary criteria and maybe that gave the nod to DePauw. If I am splitting hairs, I am still giving that to DePauw thanks to the non-loss to Trine and the extra (three) opponents in the vRRO.

I really don't want to continue to drag this out - as I said earlier the order is not terribly significant to me  - but I am interested in the why based on the facts.  DePauw is not 1-0 vs Trine - they are 0-0 - never played them this year.  And what three extra opponents in the vRRO - both teams are 2-1?

Amherst and Hope are the only teams to beat Trine this season, the did not play DePauw.

DePauw and Hope's only shared opponent is Rose-Hulman, both teams got them at home and won by similar numbers. Personally, since everything else is close to equal, I'd give the nod to the team with the "better" loss. Second time playing the #6 team in the country, on their court vs. at the time #10 ranked Washington at home. Maybe a slight nod to Hope, but it's still so stinkin close.

I'm with Flying Dutch Fan, I have no problem with this going either way, but there was absolutely no change between the first and second rankings that warranted a change in how the teams were ranked. Shouldn't really matter. If Hope beats Trine in the MIAA Tournament, that should propel them ahead. If Trine wins, DePauw would clearly have the edge.

[Roundball999]

OK - so I was looking at the wrong data sheets, sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.

I have DePauw at 24-1 and Hope 23-1 - a wash.
I have DePauw at .531 and Hope at .540 for the SOS - a wash.
Both teams are 2-1 vRRO - which is a wash on paper, but DePauw has a win over Rose-Hulman and Wis. Lutheran (5th and 6th this week) and a loss to WashU; Hope has wins over Trine and Rose-Hulman and a lose to Trine ... I'm going to give this to DePauw for the fact they have three teams in that group versus just two for Hope.
Comparable opponents:
- Trine: Hope is 1-1; DePauw 1-0
- That's all I've got apparently.

No head-to-head.

I think it is really close. I am not sure what the non-conference SOS numbers are... it could very well be they went to secondary criteria and maybe that gave the nod to DePauw. If I am splitting hairs, I am still giving that to DePauw thanks to the non-loss to Trine and the extra (three) opponents in the vRRO.

I really don't want to continue to drag this out - as I said earlier the order is not terribly significant to me  - but I am interested in the why based on the facts.  DePauw is not 1-0 vs Trine - they are 0-0 - never played them this year.  And what three extra opponents in the vRRO - both teams are 2-1?

Amherst and Hope are the only teams to beat Trine this season, the did not play DePauw.

DePauw and Hope's only shared opponent is Rose-Hulman, both teams got them at home and won by similar numbers. Personally, since everything else is close to equal, I'd give the nod to the team with the "better" loss. Second time playing the #6 team in the country, on their court vs. at the time #10 ranked Washington at home. Maybe a slight nod to Hope, but it's still so stinkin close.

I'm with Flying Dutch Fan, I have no problem with this going either way, but there was absolutely no change between the first and second rankings that warranted a change in how the teams were ranked. Shouldn't really matter. If Hope beats Trine in the MIAA Tournament, that should propel them ahead. If Trine wins, DePauw would clearly have the edge.

Agree with everything here.  But I'm worried about Calvin first, Hope has already had two nailbiters with Calvin and as they say, beating a team three times in a season is tough....

[Roundball999]

OK - so I was looking at the wrong data sheets, sorry about that. Not sure how that happened.

I have DePauw at 24-1 and Hope 23-1 - a wash.
I have DePauw at .531 and Hope at .540 for the SOS - a wash.
Both teams are 2-1 vRRO - which is a wash on paper, but DePauw has a win over Rose-Hulman and Wis. Lutheran (5th and 6th this week) and a loss to WashU; Hope has wins over Trine and Rose-Hulman and a lose to Trine ... I'm going to give this to DePauw for the fact they have three teams in that group versus just two for Hope.
Comparable opponents:
- Trine: Hope is 1-1; DePauw 1-0
- That's all I've got apparently.

No head-to-head.

I think it is really close. I am not sure what the non-conference SOS numbers are... it could very well be they went to secondary criteria and maybe that gave the nod to DePauw. If I am splitting hairs, I am still giving that to DePauw thanks to the non-loss to Trine and the extra (three) opponents in the vRRO.

I really don't want to continue to drag this out - as I said earlier the order is not terribly significant to me  - but I am interested in the why based on the facts.  DePauw is not 1-0 vs Trine - they are 0-0 - never played them this year.  And what three extra opponents in the vRRO - both teams are 2-1?

Maybe we can put this debate aside - at least for a couple hours until Hope plays Calvin.  Looks like Wittenberg may upset DePauw.

[pointlem]

Hope v. Calvin women's games this year have not been for the faint of heart. With Hope leading by 13 midway through the third quarter, Hope fans were settling back to savor the rest of the evening. But then Calvin's tight defense combined with a series of unlucky roll-offs for Hope let Calvin come charging back to take a 50 to 48 lead. From the 8:43 mark of the 4th quarter Hope missed 14 consecutive shots, until Francesca Buchanan tied the game with seconds left to put it into overtime.

The last seconds of regulation time offered some interesting strategy.  When Calvin collected a rebound with 37 seconds left and that 50-48 lead, Hope was guaranteed getting the ball back with at least 7 seconds and a time out that would bring the ball to their end of the court. But instead they elected four consecutive fouls and to put Calvin's best shooter at the line for two free throws. But luck (Providence?) favored Hope, as she missed both and Francesca made the game-typing basket.  At that point, with 9 seconds left, Calvin did NOT call timeout to advance the ball, but instead dribbled slowly up court and was unable to score.

Hope was very fortunate to win on 34% shooting for night, when getting out-rebounded by 12. Credit their defense--which feasted on +17 turnover margin. Perhaps that was partly attributable to the depth of Hope's bench--with 13 players on the floor, and no player having more than 33 minutes in a 45 game (unlike Calvin's starters--all but one of whom played more than 40 minutes).

Hope fans will hope for a better shooting night tomorrow. And with the upset of DePauw tonight, perhaps they can look forward to playing at home for (if they have the good fortune not to lose) five more games?

[TUAngola]

Making my first trip to DeVos tonight for the Hope-Trine MIAA championship WBB game.  I've been to Holland a few times but never to a Hope game.  Trine with a good win against a young Albion squad last night that is only going to continue to get better.  Nice to see everyone contributing.  The girls are playing their best ball right now.  When Lira went down with season ending injury, moving Steers to the point and inserting Freeman into the starting lineup has worked very well.  Another key is how well Montana Martin is playing off the bench.  She's our main 3pt threat and can get to the basket too.  Our defense is rock solid, so when the offense is moving the ball around and not just looking for Dawson or Haley Martin inside every trip, we're hard to defend. 

Watched both games on video online last night.  Well, until my video feed stopped just as Hope and Calvin were starting OT, not sure what happened, couldn't figure out if it was my computer or technical difficulties with the feed.  Boy, that game was exciting.  Hope seemed to be cruising, but Calvin with an outstanding 4th qtr, hitting clutch shots and Hope going cold.  Key moment was Spayde not hitting those 2 FTs at the end, that was shocking.  Hope took advantage and tied game up at the end.  Feel bad for Calvin, they are such a good team, a little thin without Warners in there, but just some really tough losses to both Hope and Trine this year when they could have won any of them with just making a play or 2 more.  They are good enough to be a tournament team but just don't think they will be able to get an at-large bid this year. 

So the winner tonight will for certain get to host 1st round tournament next week.  Will the loser not get to host next week?  Is it too much to ask for both Trine and Hope to host or will the bracketology not allow that?  I hope the tournament can find it's way to Angola, MTI Center to too nice of a facility to be setting quiet until next year.     

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Wish I could be in two places at the same time tonight, but I will be in Olivet cheering on the men's team. Definitely will be keeping an eye on the game at DeVos as well, although it's pretty much a given that both women's teams are in while for the men it's win or go home.

Side note: Frankie Buchanan is just 15 points shy of the 1000 point mark in her career with another year to come.

[Roundball999]

So the winner tonight will for certain get to host 1st round tournament next week.  Will the loser not get to host next week?  Is it too much to ask for both Trine and Hope to host or will the bracketology not allow that?  I hope the tournament can find it's way to Angola, MTI Center to too nice of a facility to be setting quiet until next year.     

Last regional rankings in order were DePauw, Hope, Thomas More, Trine.

DePauw lost, either Hope or Trine will win the MIAA tournament and the other will have another loss; and I can't see Thomas More losing against the weak competition in their league tournament.  So it seems to me that the Hope/Trine winner and Thomas More will be the most likely Great Lakes hosts.  Of course all the usual NCAA calculations about travel distances etc are not considered here.

[pointlem]

If I were OldKnight (we miss you) or TUAngola I would feel snake bit. With their fellow fans, they had good reason to believe a well-earned victory was at hand with their teams on Friday and Saturday having the lead and the ball with mere seconds to go. And yet Hope somehow managed to snatch heart stopping overtime victories from both.

Last night, Hope came from 16 points down against the #6 team and needed all of Madison Geers' five points in the final 11 seconds of regulation--the last two at the buzzer on a perfectly designed and executed long in bounds pass with 1.6 seconds left. The coach looked like a genius for drawing up the pick that freed the player, but the players had to execute with no margin for error. It was stunning.

As a long-time Hope fan, I perhaps anticipated this weekend as the portal to the NCAA tournament that follows.  In hindsight, the savoring of those two exciting victories will be a great memory of its own, regardless of what follows.

And a special congrats to Francesca Buchanan, who sat out the entire 2nd quarter with two fouls and but two points at half. . . but then played with fierce determination 23 of the ensuing 25 minutes, ending up with a game-high 21 points (and 1000+ career points).