WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Roundball999]

Congratulations to both Hope and Trine for a hard fought game, just the kind of game that has become the hallmark of this series in the past several years.  Trine played with grit and did the things they needed to make a game of it.  Just needed to knock down a few more shots.  For the Dutch, it was a team win for sure but Kennedy stepped up like an All American when it was needed, shot the ball at a blistering pace and had no turnovers.  Not sure what's up with the free throws, that was a pretty bad showing for the Dutch, leaving maybe 10 easy points at the line.

Massey really nailed this one

[TUAngola]

Really really impressed by Trine today. Hope did a great job containing Tara and Kelsy, but Kayla, Makayla, and Rachel stepped up big. Trine played much better and kept this much closer than I was expecting.

On the other side, Kenedy reminded everyone why she's a first team All-American and why Hope is the top ranked team in the country.

I think it's very possible we see 3 more Hope v. Trine games this season.

First off what a really good game, proud of the way Trine fought.  As HOPEful mentioned the difference in the game was Schoonveld.  She put the team on her back the second half and anytime you thought well maybe Trine might get it to a one possession game she would make a 3 or dribble and drive to the hoop for a bucket.  She finished with 20 and could easily put up offensive numbers like this all the time, but by the 3rd quarter Hope is up 30+ in their games and so she usually gets to sit out the rest of the game.  Whereas we couldn't get enough open looks for Tara.  Hope is really good at guarding the 3pt line and they will even trap you that far away from the basket.  Tara is a catch and shoot player, when she has to create shots off the dribble that is where she really struggles.  Trine was missing our starting PG, as Kaylee Argyle was in a boot on the bench.  I was sitting next to her Dad and he said that she injured her foot in practice Thursday and could be out 3-4 weeks.  So that moved Makayla into the starting lineup and Freshman Sidney Wagner into the backup role at PG.  Up until today Sidney's minutes have been sporadic.  But I tell you what I was impressed with her play.  She might be the best ball handler on the team and she can create her own shot getting to the rim.  She's gonna be a good one!  But somehow we have to find more minutes for Rachel Stewart, especially in a game like this where Hope pressures the heck out of you.  She is a ball hawk on defense and can create offensively if needed.  I thought we did hit 2 of my 3 keys to the game:  our turnovers were under 20 and we did a decent job of defensive rebounding.  The 3rd key was to shoot in the low to mid 40% range, but finished at 35.7%.  A few more makes and it's a tight finish.  Our defense was pretty solid, I especially thought we forced Olivia into some tough shots.  But on the defensive end she made 2 or 3 key blocks in the paint down the stretch.  She is a natural shot blocker with great instincts.

Now, my second point again is to the schedule makers.  There is no way this game should have been played with students on break.  Not sure who puts the MIAA schedule together, but you have the 2 best teams in the MIAA for about the last 6+ years, with Hope on a 50+ win streak and you schedule this one a week before Christmas?  It's absolutely absurd and a travesty not to have the Trine students be able to see the best team in the nation play.  Their energy might have helped, but we'll never know.  Good turnout of Hope fans today, they probably had 75+ in the stands.

[ronk]

Really really impressed by Trine today. Hope did a great job containing Tara and Kelsy, but Kayla, Makayla, and Rachel stepped up big. Trine played much better and kept this much closer than I was expecting.

On the other side, Kenedy reminded everyone why she's a first team All-American and why Hope is the top ranked team in the country.

I think it's very possible we see 3 more Hope v. Trine games this season.

First off what a really good game, proud of the way Trine fought.  As HOPEful mentioned the difference in the game was Schoonveld.  She put the team on her back the second half and anytime you thought well maybe Trine might get it to a one possession game she would make a 3 or dribble and drive to the hoop for a bucket.  She finished with 20 and could easily put up offensive numbers like this all the time, but by the 3rd quarter Hope is up 30+ in their games and so she usually gets to sit out the rest of the game.  Whereas we couldn't get enough open looks for Tara.  Hope is really good at guarding the 3pt line and they will even trap you that far away from the basket.  Tara is a catch and shoot player, when she has to create shots off the dribble that is where she really struggles.  Trine was missing our starting PG, as Kaylee Argyle was in a boot on the bench.  I was sitting next to her Dad and he said that she injured her foot in practice Thursday and could be out 3-4 weeks.  So that moved Makayla into the starting lineup and Freshman Sidney Wagner into the backup role at PG.  Up until today Sidney's minutes have been sporadic.  But I tell you what I was impressed with her play.  She might be the best ball handler on the team and she can create her own shot getting to the rim.  She's gonna be a good one!  But somehow we have to find more minutes for Rachel Stewart, especially in a game like this where Hope pressures the heck out of you.  She is a ball hawk on defense and can create offensively if needed.  I thought we did hit 2 of my 3 keys to the game:  our turnovers were under 20 and we did a decent job of defensive rebounding.  The 3rd key was to shoot in the low to mid 40% range, but finished at 35.7%.  A few more makes and it's a tight finish.  Our defense was pretty solid, I especially thought we forced Olivia into some tough shots.  But on the defensive end she made 2 or 3 key blocks in the paint down the stretch.  She is a natural shot blocker with great instincts.

Now, my second point again is to the schedule makers.  There is no way this game should have been played with students on break.  Not sure who puts the MIAA schedule together, but you have the 2 best teams in the MIAA for about the last 6+ years, with Hope on a 50+ win streak and you schedule this one a week before Christmas?  It's absolutely absurd and a travesty not to have the Trine students be able to see the best team in the nation play.  Their energy might have helped, but we'll never know.  Good turnout of Hope fans today, they probably had 75+ in the stands.

I was impressed with Wagner and Stewart, also. Unfortunate that Trine lost its PG but Wagner will be a fine substitute; especially like the way she dribbles into the paint and maintains her dribble til the options are exhausted; most PGs either pick up their dribble or leave their feet to shoot(and get the shot deflected) or pass.
Looking forward to the future Trine-Hope encounters this season.

[Jester1390]

This might seem as a rip against the Hope program and its not.  I appreciate great programs we have St. Thomas here in Minnesota. They dominated in almost every program but it was their dominance in football that got them kicked out and made D-1. I don't know if Hope is as great in other sports as woman's basketball but what changed for them after 1996.  Was it just the hiring of the coach. Before him they were like most schools some good some bad years but after 2 years into his program they have never looked back.

Is he just a excellent recruiter. Why do high end players choose to come.  Do they have financial incentives like Berea where no one pays tuition.  With them being so dominate have they gotten heat to become D-2 at least and threatened to be voted out of the conference like the MIAC did to St. Thomas.  St. Thomas  had the facilities already to be D-1 so they chose that over becoming D-2 and more  money to be made in D-1  I don't know if that is the case with Hope.  23 years in a row being dominate I could see other schools in the conference being jealous and  tired of any advantages Hope has in recruiting if there is any.  Outside of just hey coach knows how to recruit.

[Roundball999]

This might seem as a rip against the Hope program and its not.  I appreciate great programs we have St. Thomas here in Minnesota. They dominated in almost every program but it was their dominance in football that got them kicked out and made D-1. I don't know if Hope is as great in other sports as woman's basketball but what changed for them after 1996.  Was it just the hiring of the coach. Before him they were like most schools some good some bad years but after 2 years into his program they have never looked back.

Is he just a excellent recruiter. Why do high end players choose to come.  Do they have financial incentives like Berea where no one pays tuition.  With them being so dominate have they gotten heat to become D-2 at least and threatened to be voted out of the conference like the MIAC did to St. Thomas.  St. Thomas  had the facilities already to be D-1 so they chose that over becoming D-2 and more  money to be made in D-1  I don't know if that is the case with Hope.  23 years in a row being dominate I could see other schools in the conference being jealous and  tired of any advantages Hope has in recruiting if there is any.  Outside of just hey coach knows how to recruit.

I was ready to be offended by the implications in your post but let me back off; it does appear from your post that you know little about the program and may be genuinely curious. 

That said, let me address a few of your questions as someone who has had a daughter play there and graduate.  No, like other D3 schools Hope has no athletic scholarships.  They have need based aid (based on FAFSA) and some academic scholarships.  My daughter received an academic scholarship equal to about 15% of cost to attend; she was AP-everything in high school with almost 4.0 GPA and fantastic SAT scores so she deserved it as much as any student.  Hope has a diverse and excellent undergraduate degree program from engineering to nursing with one of the stronger undergraduate research programs in the country.  So they are an attractive school for student athletes with a wide range of interests.  But I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the coach, it is no a coincidence they have thrived since Coach Mo's hiring.  I'd say their success is probably 80% the coach and 20% everything else including some key alumni providing support for a beautiful facility.  His father was a high school coach and has assisted his son at Hope for many years; Coach Mo has been immersed in basketball his entire life.  He graduated from Hope in '91 and was an undergraduate assistant to the men's program during his undergrad years.  He then assisted the men's program and coached the men's JV for several years before taking over the women's program.  In addition to being a fantastic coach you will not find a more decent, honorable, hard working and community minded man anywhere.  The team is involved in numerous community activities every year, particularly Miracle League events where the players work with mentally and physically disabled kids.  THAT, along academics and facilities, is what makes many young women want to play for him and Hope over others.  Over the years, that effort has gradually built strong support from the administration and the community such that Hope now leads the NCAA in attendance every year.  Students go to games, parents and families of players long gone still go to games, even the local over-55 community has a strong contingent of their residents that attend every home game. 

So I'm clearly biased but seems to me you have a leader who is a wonderful man and coach; an excellent school with a diverse degree program that is not quite as expensive as the top tier private schools; a beautiful facility; exceptional fan following, a really fantastic little town in Holland, MI that is just a few walking blocks from campus; and now a record of sustained excellence.  It builds on itself.  Coach Mo's program to me is an example of a D3 program doing everything right in my opinion.  But it's not like they go to the final four every year; the current run is fueled by a very strong senior class including the 5th year Covid players.  Hope women's BB is usually very strong for the aforementioned reasons but are often neck and neck with Calvin; Calvin happens to be down last couple of years but now every game with Trine is a struggle.  Men's BB has been around .500 for several years and while Hope generally fields strong and competitive MIAA teams in other sports it's not as if they dominant the league much less the NCAA.

Sorry for the long response but I hope it helps you understand.

[Jester1390]

Thanks Round. I wasn't implying they are buying players. St Thomas got d-1 players to come one their facilities were 2nd to none on the d-3 level and being parting a major metropolitan area.  However there dominance made the other schools say they had a unfair advantage and voted them out of conference.  I was more curious on if they have gotten blowback from other teams in the conference but are they as dominate on other area.

I just had a mom from mount saint joe ask me at a game how the hell does Rose get any d-1 talent to come to terre haute not exactly a tourist stop and it's simple because if you graduate from rose your going to make six figures.   Didn't know Hope was a engineering school  don't know how many of the women are studying that but that defiantly can be an advantage getting high end academic athletes and then having other areas so that not all your athletes have to have a 29 act. Getting the best of both worlds   


Is Michigan high school basketball really strong. I heard a discussion where a announcer thought Illinois high school is stronger then Indiana.  I would throw Minnesota Into that ring.  Also the top all Iowa attack teams are pretty damn good

[Jester1390]

I don't know if there is any Calvin or trinity people on this board but it would be interesting to hear why they think Hope has been so dominate for over 20 years.  Is there just respect for the Hope program or is there animosity like other Miac teams felt for st Thomas that they had built in advantages

[pointlem]

Excellent question, Jester . . . and answer Roundball.

Other MIAA schools have similarly sustained excellence in a particular athletic program over time . . . Kalamazoo in tennis, Calvin in cross-country, and Albion for an era in football come immediately to mind . . . with the league, I think, taking pride in their achievements.

Observing Hope women's BB close at hand, I'd second Roundball, and also offer my sense that there's lots of joy and love evident on those Morehouse-coached teams. If I had a daughter capable of playing college ball, I'd love for her to have the experience those Hope women have enjoyed over the years.

[Roundball999]

Thanks Round. I wasn't implying they are buying players. St Thomas got d-1 players to come one their facilities were 2nd to none on the d-3 level and being parting a major metropolitan area.  However there dominance made the other schools say they had a unfair advantage and voted them out of conference.  I was more curious on if they have gotten blowback from other teams in the conference but are they as dominate on other area.

I just had a mom from mount saint joe ask me at a game how the hell does Rose get any d-1 talent to come to terre haute not exactly a tourist stop and it's simple because if you graduate from rose your going to make six figures.   Didn't know Hope was a engineering school  don't know how many of the women are studying that but that defiantly can be an advantage getting high end academic athletes and then having other areas so that not all your athletes have to have a 29 act. Getting the best of both worlds   


Is Michigan high school basketball really strong. I heard a discussion where a announcer thought Illinois high school is stronger then Indiana.  I would throw Minnesota Into that ring.  Also the top all Iowa attack teams are pretty damn good

I wouldn't say Hope is an engineering school like RHIT but it's a solid program.  Olivia Voskuil for example is an engineering major and plans to get a Masters in engineering at Michigan after Hope.  It's also notable that Hope pretty regularly has Nursing majors in the team, that's especially demanding during senior year when frequent nursing clinicals can impact schedules and practices.

Hope's roster is almost all from Michigan; one player from IL and two from IN.  Not sure the relative strength of the states.

[Jester1390]

Round very true about nursing. D-3 schools not so much worry but I was told to make sure when my kid was visiting d-2 schools to make sure they were good with a nursing major.  My kid isn't a d-1 talent but I think nursing majors is frowned upon on that level. I know engineering defiantly is.  A player at rose was told by her former school you are here to play basketball not miss practice for a engineering class.

[TUAngola]

Thanks Round. I wasn't implying they are buying players. St Thomas got d-1 players to come one their facilities were 2nd to none on the d-3 level and being parting a major metropolitan area.  However there dominance made the other schools say they had a unfair advantage and voted them out of conference.  I was more curious on if they have gotten blowback from other teams in the conference but are they as dominate on other area.

I just had a mom from mount saint joe ask me at a game how the hell does Rose get any d-1 talent to come to terre haute not exactly a tourist stop and it's simple because if you graduate from rose your going to make six figures.   Didn't know Hope was a engineering school  don't know how many of the women are studying that but that defiantly can be an advantage getting high end academic athletes and then having other areas so that not all your athletes have to have a 29 act. Getting the best of both worlds   


Is Michigan high school basketball really strong. I heard a discussion where a announcer thought Illinois high school is stronger then Indiana.  I would throw Minnesota Into that ring.  Also the top all Iowa attack teams are pretty damn good

I wouldn't say Hope is an engineering school like RHIT but it's a solid program.  Olivia Voskuil for example is an engineering major and plans to get a Masters in engineering at Michigan after Hope.  It's also notable that Hope pretty regularly has Nursing majors in the team, that's especially demanding during senior year when frequent nursing clinicals can impact schedules and practices.

Hope's roster is almost all from Michigan; one player from IL and two from IN.  Not sure the relative strength of the states.

Hope will have another Indiana girl on their squad next year.  Angola's Lauren Leach announced in November that she will be attending Hope College.  She is a 5'11 forward averaging about 14 pts per game.  She had several NAIA offers and offers from home town Trine and DePauw among others.  That is 2 Angola kids who have spurned Trine for Hope as Jake Honer was recently on the men's squad.  So I agree with Roudball and pointlem that Hope is an attractive college destination for prospective students and student athletes. 

[jspiii]

And St. Thomas is quite a bit larger school than Hope College. Wikipedia has enrollment at St Thomas at 6,200-6,500 undergraduates, Hope is around 3,200-3,500.

[Jester1390]

This issue started at st .Thomas due to there dominance in football.  They did well in other sports but it was football that drove the other schools against them. They were accused of running up scores rightfully or wrongly and the move very mafia line was to expell them.   There will always be programs jealous of other programs.   Hope has been so dominate in WBB  for so long but if they ar so level on football and other sports there probably isn't that pressure.   I just had a talk with a young player from Rose who isn't getting a lot of playing time and we care about.  I told her the same thing of if I was Hope or st Thomas.   In her case I told her what i  ha e told my daughter her entire life make them have to play you.   And to Miac teams and Hope openers I would say. Recruit better coach better and play better

[Roundball999]

Jester, Amherst is another interesting example of sustained excellence in WBB.   Another great coach in Gromacki.  He actually has a slightly better career winning % than Hope's coach and also has 3 national championships to Morehouse's two.  Their facility is modest and I wouldn't call Amherst a basketball town by any stretch.  They offer only need-based aid; there are no academic scholarships.  Their admissions selectivity is far more stringent than either Hope or RHIT.  So how do they do it?  Well, because of their academic reputation they have a talent pool that is international, the current roster represents seven states including two from California and they even have a 6'6" frosh from Malaysia.  They also seem to have a bit of a pipeline from kids interested in the Ivy League schools; young women that have the academics and talent to play at a lower D1 like an Ivy but might not want the commitment and rigor of a D1 program.  Especially when there is no scholarship at the Ivy college anway.  Amherst becomes a good alternative with high quality hoops and outstanding academics.  Costs are similarly outrageous at Amherst and an Ivy.

I figure the lesson is that every coach would do well to try to determine those attributes that might be particularly unique and attractive for their particular college and really targeting their recruiting around that rather than just casting a wide net.  Then pay a lot of attention to those young women that fit your college's unique "profile", what young athlete isn't influenced by that level of attention?  Maybe this is obvious and coaches already do this, I really don't know.

[HOPEful]

A few points yet to be mentioned...

1. I've discussed in the past the stark difference I've observed between the average d3 male recruit vs. the average d3 female recruit. In my experience, the average high school senior female athlete takes a much more wholistic approach when considering their college experience. The ego of going D1 or D2 vs. D3 doesn't seem to matter as much as it does to their male counterparts. And the campus, student life, curriculum, housing, etc. all seems to matter as much as the athletic program. It feels at times like male athletes don't even consider which school is a better fit or will set them up better for the rest of their life post college, they just want to ball at the highest level. As Roundball attested, Coach Mo sells recruits on not just a perennial powerhouse tradition, but a tight knit culture of comradery on and off the court supported by one of the most electric fan bases for women's basketball in all the country, at any level. Not to downplay the value of a athletic scholarship, but even at the D3 level, male athletes seem much more willing to go to the program that makes them the best basketball offer... a more athlete first, student second mentality. There are many high caliber male recruits that don't even consider Hope because they're fixated on the athletic scholarships being offered to them by NAIA or D2 schools like Cornerstone or GVSU. Coach Mo doesn't seem to struggle with that problem even close to the same extent.

2. The old cliché is "you can't teach height" and Dutch people are on average the tallest people in the world. Voskuil and Schoonveld are very Dutch names and both attended Holland Christian high school. I'm sure that Coach Mo isn't complaining about the much larger than average pool of 6'+ players to recruit in West MI vs. other communities.

3. As for this dominant current team, getting your two All Americans back from last year for a 5th year doesn't hurt either. And they probably weren't too difficult to recruit 6 years ago seeing as one of them is the daughter of Hope's athletic director