WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[pointlem]

I expect none of us will live long enough to see another quarter of women's basketball shooting like Hope's first quarter against Kalamazoo today. I'm not referring to the 41 to 5 first quarter lead, but to the 16 of 17 shooting, including 9 of 9 threes without a rim touch. (I'm presuming that their game's 21 3-point makes is a team, if not a league, record.)

And to think that the all-senior starting lineup was essentially last year's bench. That was a national championship team with depth—two top-ten teams in one lineup.

The year-after-year Hope women's BB culture, including the evident joy and camaraderie, is a such a pleasure to follow. Small wonder the continued recruiting success and fan support.

[HOPEful]

https://miaa.org/sports/wbkb/2022-23/releases/TournamentCentral

Women's tournament direct link...

[HOPEful]

I am just not a fan of going back to one site for the semis. Trine is the co-champion and shouldn't have to travel to Hope to play a neutral game against likely Calvin.

At least this season the host school isn't the same for both men and women. 1:30 and 3:30 Friday semis on a neutral court are poorly attended and a horrible way to showcase your #2 and #3 teams.

[Roundball999]

I am just not a fan of going back to one site for the semis. Trine is the co-champion and shouldn't have to travel to Hope to play a neutral game against likely Calvin.

At least this season the host school isn't the same for both men and women. 1:30 and 3:30 Friday semis on a neutral court are poorly attended and a horrible way to showcase your #2 and #3 teams.

Agreed.  If the semis were always a highly attended "event" for both games I'd say maybe it makes sense but as it is, seems to me the higher seed should host each game.  They earned it.

[Roundball999]

I expect none of us will live long enough to see another quarter of women's basketball shooting like Hope's first quarter against Kalamazoo today. I'm not referring to the 41 to 5 first quarter lead, but to the 16 of 17 shooting, including 9 of 9 threes without a rim touch. (I'm presuming that their game's 21 3-point makes is a team, if not a league, record.)

And to think that the all-senior starting lineup was essentially last year's bench. That was a national championship team with depth—two top-ten teams in one lineup.

The year-after-year Hope women's BB culture, including the evident joy and camaraderie, is a such a pleasure to follow. Small wonder the continued recruiting success and fan support.

That first quarter was amazing to watch, the entire team was unconscious.  9 threes in a quarter without a miss, wow.

But according to the MIAA record book, the 21 threes was not a record.  That belongs to Trine 1/8/2005 when they made 22 vs. Albion.  That same year Trine also set the record for attempts in a game, hoisting 53 on 2/2/2005 vs Alma.  Seems like the 3 pointer was a major part of Trine's offense that year. Am I remembering correctly that the women's 3 point line was closer at that time?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I am just not a fan of going back to one site for the semis. Trine is the co-champion and shouldn't have to travel to Hope to play a neutral game against likely Calvin.

At least this season the host school isn't the same for both men and women. 1:30 and 3:30 Friday semis on a neutral court are poorly attended and a horrible way to showcase your #2 and #3 teams.

Respectfully, but COMPLETELY disagree.  The semi's and final in a single location literally prepares the winning team (or teams if a Pool C selections happen) for the NCAA tournament.  It's also a great atmosphere for the games to be back to back - there is more energy and excitement, for both the fans and the players.  Playing individual games at seperate locations just feels like an extension of the league season - which at this point the players are ready to be done with. 

I also think the impact on attendance is not as you might be expecting:

Last season the semi's were hosted as you prefer.  Hope hosted Calvin, and Trine hosted Alma.  Hope had 1650 attend, Trine had 638.

In the 19-20 season (last time the semi's were hosted at a single location), Hope hosted - Trine vs Albion followed by Hope vs Calvin.  The Trine/Albion game had an attendance of 650 - while Trine's avg home attendance that season was 330.    The Hope/Calvin game had 2079 attend - while Hope's avg attendance was 1038

[pointlem]

I am just not a fan of going back to one site for the semis. Trine is the co-champion and shouldn't have to travel to Hope to play a neutral game against likely Calvin.

At least this season the host school isn't the same for both men and women. 1:30 and 3:30 Friday semis on a neutral court are poorly attended and a horrible way to showcase your #2 and #3 teams.

Respectfully, but COMPLETELY disagree.  The semi's and final in a single location literally prepares the winning team (or teams if a Pool C selections happen) for the NCAA tournament.  It's also a great atmosphere for the games to be back to back - there is more energy and excitement, for both the fans and the players.  Playing individual games at seperate locations just feels like an extension of the league season - which at this point the players are ready to be done with. 

I also think the impact on attendance is not as you might be expecting:

Last season the semi's were hosted as you prefer.  Hope hosted Calvin, and Trine hosted Alma.  Hope had 1650 attend, Trine had 638.

In the 19-20 season (last time the semi's were hosted at a single location), Hope hosted - Trine vs Albion followed by Hope vs Calvin.  The Trine/Albion game had an attendance of 650 - while Trine's avg home attendance that season was 330.    The Hope/Calvin game had 2079 attend - while Hope's avg attendance was 1038

FDF, I'm 99% of the time with you . . . but I vote with Hopeful and Roundball on this one. Plus the MIAA could a) reward the #2 seed fans with another home game, b) sell two houses instead of one for the semis, c) not risk a championship game with no home team and low attendance, and d) not risk both men's and women's teams on a top-seed school jamming the Friday semis schedule. 

On the other hand, as a Hope fan this way I get to watch two games on Friday.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I am just not a fan of going back to one site for the semis. Trine is the co-champion and shouldn't have to travel to Hope to play a neutral game against likely Calvin.

At least this season the host school isn't the same for both men and women. 1:30 and 3:30 Friday semis on a neutral court are poorly attended and a horrible way to showcase your #2 and #3 teams.

Respectfully, but COMPLETELY disagree.  The semi's and final in a single location literally prepares the winning team (or teams if a Pool C selections happen) for the NCAA tournament.  It's also a great atmosphere for the games to be back to back - there is more energy and excitement, for both the fans and the players.  Playing individual games at seperate locations just feels like an extension of the league season - which at this point the players are ready to be done with. 

I also think the impact on attendance is not as you might be expecting:

Last season the semi's were hosted as you prefer.  Hope hosted Calvin, and Trine hosted Alma.  Hope had 1650 attend, Trine had 638.

In the 19-20 season (last time the semi's were hosted at a single location), Hope hosted - Trine vs Albion followed by Hope vs Calvin.  The Trine/Albion game had an attendance of 650 - while Trine's avg home attendance that season was 330.    The Hope/Calvin game had 2079 attend - while Hope's avg attendance was 1038

FDF, I'm 99% of the time with you . . . but I vote with Hopeful and Roundball on this one. Plus the MIAA could a) reward the #2 seed fans with another home game, b) sell two houses instead of one for the semis, c) not risk a championship game with no home team and low attendance, and d) not risk both men's and women's teams on a top-seed school jamming the Friday semis schedule. 

On the other hand, as a Hope fan this way I get to watch two games on Friday.

Sorry, but I don't think your points a) and b) are completely valid.  Attendance at MIAA tournament games is not good compared to regular season attendance (escpecially for Hope & Calvin - where the tournament games cost $$ above and beyond season tickets).  Your points c) and d) are certainly a concern for me as well - but I still believe the atmosphere is simply different when they are played in one place - somthing that those in attendance as well as (and more importantly) those playing the game can feel and experience.  I know in the past that teams who travel to play in these combined semi's have treated it very different than just a road game.  They have stayed in hotels, made something special out of it, and turned it into a great experience for the student-athletes. 

[HOPEful]

I will concede that a single host site is more representative of the NCAA tournament than individual hosts. I think Trine would sell that advantage 10 times out of 10 to get to host vs. get the "playoff atmosphere experience." If the games weren't on a weekday night, I might feel differently. But fans will have to leave Angola at 3 pm on Friday to get to Hope in time for the women's game or Calvin in time for the men's game. The alternative was a doubleheader at MTI.

As to your statistics, I would argue two points...

1. I would be interested in knowing what percentage of those in attendance were fans of the host school that arrived early to get good seats for the game they really cared about and catch the "other" game. The atmosphere is NOT the same when it's the host school's fans half-heartedly rooting against their rival and/or the favorite. Assuming chalk, even if a Trine v Calvin game at Hope is well attended, it just won't be the same as if the game was in Angola.

2. It's not always fair to compare attendance against the average. Calvin, for example, gets significantly more fans in Van Noord when they're hosting Hope or for meaningful games late in the season than they do earlier in the season when students are often not on campus and/or on January term. For a MIAA tournament, you really ought to be comparing to the numbers v. the top attended games. Even then though, to revisit my first point, it's still not fully fair to compare attendance at DeVos vs. other MIAA schools. Hope just has such an amazing women's basketball following that is unlike anywhere else in the country, let alone the MIAA. The amount of Hope fans that will arrive early to catch the first game and get good seats is probably higher than the average attendance at most MIAA women's games.

[calvin_grad]

2. It's not always fair to compare attendance against the average. Calvin, for example, gets significantly more fans in Van Noord when they're hosting Hope or for meaningful games late in the season than they do earlier in the season when students are often not on campus and/or on January term. For a MIAA tournament, you really ought to be comparing to the numbers v. the top attended games. Even then though, to revisit my first point, it's still not fully fair to compare attendance at DeVos vs. other MIAA schools. Hope just has such an amazing women's basketball following that is unlike anywhere else in the country, let alone the MIAA. The amount of Hope fans that will arrive early to catch the first game and get good seats is probably higher than the average attendance at most MIAA women's games.

FYI, Calvin no longer has Interim in January.  2nd semester starts right after the new year.  Although that may be changing back to the way it was....

[HOPEful]

FYI, Calvin no longer has Interim in January.  2nd semester starts right after the new year.  Although that may be changing back to the way it was....

Good to know! Did they determine the benefit wasn't worth the pain of getting out later than most other schools?

[TUAngola]

I disagree on one school hosting the semifinals.  I get what your saying about making it feel more like a tournament atmosphere, but most schools have already had that type of atmosphere at least once, possibly more, with in season 'tournaments' in November and December to replicate how the ncaa tournmament will feel.  The only thing this format rewards is for the #1 seed.  Trine had terrific years in both WBB and MBB to earn the #2 seed, but their 'reward' is to play at the #1 seed's gym at 5:30, not their own.  Other than parents and family there will be few if any other 'fans' of Trine there for an early Friday night game, but it's rewarding Calvin (assuming they beat Adrian, which is pretty much a lock) the easy travel to Hope for family and fans who won't have to miss work/school.  I guarantee there will be more Hope fans at the Trine/Calvin game than of both those schools combined...easily.

[HOPEful]

I guarantee there will be more Hope fans at the Trine/Calvin game than of both those schools combined...easily.

I agree. But who will they be rooting for?

I think it's an easier answer without Sam as the separation between the two isn't as great. I think it'd have to be a fairly significant upset for a Hope fan to root for Calvin. Still, Hope fans rooting for Trine will not be with the same vim as Trine fans rooting for Trine.

[TUAngola]

I guarantee there will be more Hope fans at the Trine/Calvin game than of both those schools combined...easily.

I agree. But who will they be rooting for?

I think it's an easier answer without Sam as the separation between the two isn't as great. I think it'd have to be a fairly significant upset for a Hope fan to root for Calvin. Still, Hope fans rooting for Trine will not be with the same vim as Trine fans rooting for Trine.

I don't think Hope fans will necessarily root for either team.  Hope fans just want to do a little 'scouting' for the Saturday night matchup with either Calvin or Trine.

I got teary eyed at Trine's game Saturday with Adrian for Senior Day.  Sam was dressed and was in the starting lineup with her crutches.  Both teams/coaches had prearranged on how the tip would go.  We line up for the tip with Sam positioned near the sideline by Trine's bench.  We 'win' the tip and promptly travel delivering the ball to Sam for one last touch in a game.  Lots of hugs and tears from the players and coaches and a standing ovation from the crowd for Sam as she gets subbed out.  Thanks to Adrian WBB for the kind gesture.

[HOPEful]

I don't think Hope fans will necessarily root for either team.  Hope fans just want to do a little 'scouting' for the Saturday night matchup with either Calvin or Trine.

Agreed. But I've been to plenty of double header games opposite of the Hope game, where the crowd was pretty actively cheering for one of the teams, usually the team playing Calvin. 

I got teary eyed at Trine's game Saturday with Adrian for Senior Day.  Sam was dressed and was in the starting lineup with her crutches.  Both teams/coaches had prearranged on how the tip would go.  We line up for the tip with Sam positioned near the sideline by Trine's bench.  We 'win' the tip and promptly travel delivering the ball to Sam for one last touch in a game.  Lots of hugs and tears from the players and coaches and a standing ovation from the crowd for Sam as she gets subbed out.  Thanks to Adrian WBB for the kind gesture.

Dang, that's cool.