WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[Civic Minded]

This sounds like a stuck record (or CD), but Hope's starters last night scored 28 points and the reserves scored 63 points of the 91 total points!

For the year (through last night), the starters are averaging 36.9 points per game, while the bench is scoring 42.1 points!

I hope that you are not trying to rip on the starters for anything. Of course the reserves are going to score more points than the starters when you get at least 12-13 deep in every game, and usually 15-16 deep. Also in games when they are scoring 80-90 points against teams like KZOO, the reserves are playing way more minutes than the starters, against teams that are easy to score on.

I just don't think its fair to compare the two or three different strings of players on Hope's team. They all do something well, I think the second string can score as well as the first, and are a little quicker sometimes, but the first string plays great defense. Also the players coming off the bench are usually facing a team that is more worn out, since the starters face the fresh players at the beginning of each half. All in all, lets not compare them to each other, they are all playing well, and as a team, try not to bring anything up that makes people compare themselves to their teammates.

I didn't read AH's post that way at all.  I believe he is just pointing to the "embarassment of riches" this Hope team possesses, and that this team is strong enough that it's possible for the 2nd and 3rd units to get lots of minutes and thereby score lots of points.  (But if his point is what you're suggesting, I'd have to agree with your thoughts...)

[mjfasteenwolf]

This sounds like a stuck record (or CD), but Hope's starters last night scored 28 points and the reserves scored 63 points of the 91 total points!

For the year (through last night), the starters are averaging 36.9 points per game, while the bench is scoring 42.1 points!

I hope that you are not trying to rip on the starters for anything. Of course the reserves are going to score more points than the starters when you get at least 12-13 deep in every game, and usually 15-16 deep. Also in games when they are scoring 80-90 points against teams like KZOO, the reserves are playing way more minutes than the starters, against teams that are easy to score on.

I just don't think its fair to compare the two or three different strings of players on Hope's team. They all do something well, I think the second string can score as well as the first, and are a little quicker sometimes, but the first string plays great defense. Also the players coming off the bench are usually facing a team that is more worn out, since the starters face the fresh players at the beginning of each half. All in all, lets not compare them to each other, they are all playing well, and as a team, try not to bring anything up that makes people compare themselves to their teammates.

I didn't read AH's post that way at all.  I believe he is just pointing to the "embarassment of riches" this Hope team possesses, and that this team is strong enough that it's possible for the 2nd and 3rd units to get lots of minutes and thereby score lots of points.  (But if his point is what you're suggesting, I'd have to agree with your thoughts...)

Well I agree with you as well, and AH if that it what he is saying, they do possess unbelievable depth.

[WWWRHH]

Hope's distribution of playing time is uncoventional. I was reading the CCIW page yesterday and noticed that IWU played the starters most of the minutes in a blowout of Elmhurst.  A check of the box score showed the starters averaged 28.4 mins., with the next four averaging 12 mins.  One of the posters noted that as the tournament approaches, teams need to shorten the bench to prepare those that are going to play in the post season.  In most situations that makes sense.

Morehouse has not chosen to take that route.  Even in the closest games 11 or 12 players will see the court and there is not a huge spread in mins. played.  We continue to see rotating 4/5 combinations.  I think this works for the Dutch because:

   They are deep and there is not much talent difference between the first and second lines,

   In a typical week, the biggest challenge the Dutch face is scrimmage at practice, and

   Various combinations can be used to counter different situations.

I am sure every player would enjoy more minutes, but this approach keeps fresh players in the game.  It also helps develop players for next year and the year after.  It looks like the high level of involvement keeps the team spirit alive and everyone pulling together.

To echo earlier comments....while the second line is fast and can put a lot of points on the board at times, the first unit players are generally better individual defenders and play very good team defense.  The second line also benefits from playing against tiring opponents and the opportunity to observe the other coaches game plan.

[AlwaysHope]

This sounds like a stuck record (or CD), but Hope's starters last night scored 28 points and the reserves scored 63 points of the 91 total points!

For the year (through last night), the starters are averaging 36.9 points per game, while the bench is scoring 42.1 points!

I hope that you are not trying to rip on the starters for anything. Of course the reserves are going to score more points than the starters when you get at least 12-13 deep in every game, and usually 15-16 deep. Also in games when they are scoring 80-90 points against teams like KZOO, the reserves are playing way more minutes than the starters, against teams that are easy to score on.

I just don't think its fair to compare the two or three different strings of players on Hope's team. They all do something well, I think the second string can score as well as the first, and are a little quicker sometimes, but the first string plays great defense. Also the players coming off the bench are usually facing a team that is more worn out, since the starters face the fresh players at the beginning of each half. All in all, lets not compare them to each other, they are all playing well, and as a team, try not to bring anything up that makes people compare themselves to their teammates.

I didn't read AH's post that way at all.  I believe he is just pointing to the "embarassment of riches" this Hope team possesses, and that this team is strong enough that it's possible for the 2nd and 3rd units to get lots of minutes and thereby score lots of points.  (But if his point is what you're suggesting, I'd have to agree with your thoughts...)

Civic minded, my point precisely.  I don't recall seeing a team with that much depth.  Unlike the Hope men's team that, in Van Wiren's words, "relies on the seniors," and specifically the starters, this team relies on both the starters and the "non-starters" (probably a better word than reserves).

For example, in the Hope-Calvin game last night, where Hope led 50-22 at half, and wound up winning 76 - 59, the starters scored all but 10 points.  

In fact, my favorite player to watch is Philly Greene.  I just love the defensive pressure she puts on the ball handlers.  I also agree with your assessment that the starters are incredible on defense; the Calvin coach made a similiar remark after the last game.

In summary, I cannot recall any team that has such "abundance" that they lose little or nothing when the starters sit.  Specifically, I cannot recall situations where the bench of a team gets so much playing time that it is outscoring the starters for the year, or last night where the bench out-scored the other team, 63 to 53.

[sac]

Big kudos to the women's team for hustling back to Holland to catch the second half of the men's game.

Although time studies might suggest no showers were involved.

[WWWRHH]

Average Minutes Per Game:

First Line:   18.3

Second Line:    16.7

Third Line:    5

*Maybe not exact since some simplifying assumptions had to be made to account for the 6 player (and sometime 7 or 8)rotation on the second line, but still an indication of how minutes are spread around.  If someone had not seen the Dutch play they might guess that this was a version of the Grinnell system - which it definitely is not.

Big kudos to the women's team for hustling back to Holland to catch the second half of the men's game.

Although time studies might suggest no showers were involved.

At least no one was on the court long enough last night to make showers absoultely, positively necessary 

[womens fan]

This discussion has prompted me to make my first post here.

I have watched the women play, and would like to add a few things.

I agree it is probably not in the team's best interest to be comparing the different groups, and I think there are reason's we are seeing a difference in scoring.

As stated, the starters are playing against another teams fresh starters.

The others players are coming in against either a slightly tired group, or the other teams second string. To Hope's credit, they have a far deeper bench, and it is no wonder that they are superior to many other teams second unit.

In several of the games this year, the third unit has been playing with about 10 minutes left in the game. The second unit is used to give them a break. At this point, the opponent has got to be getting frustrated with Hope's relentless play, and very tired.

In my opinion, the biggest reason is the difference in style of play. The starting unit for Hope, plays a methodical, half court offense, using a good deal of the shot clock. They are forcing the opponent to expend energy playing defense. The second unit plays an up tempo, fast break style of basketball. Because of the fast break, and pushing the ball, they are able to have more possesions, in the same minutes played. It leads to a greater opportunity to score. An up tempo, fast break style against an opponent that has been playing a great deal of defense can't be a fun thing for the other team.

I agree that the first unit plays great team defense, and they are fantastic at holding teams down. Often we watch the ball pressure defense, and see some frustrated opposing guards. Let's not forget, that they are being backed up by off the ball defense that is preventing any type of pass, and totally distrubting the other team's offense.

All in all, I believe that the combination of the different styles of Hope basketball has lead to great success for the program. Morehouse has used the talent he has to the team's advantage. It may not lead to the stats needed to create All-Americans, but I have a feeling that they are more interested in team success....

Go Hope.

[gohope]

This post is going to appear in both the men's and women's site because... one of highlights of this season for me regarding both Hope teams is that neither team is dependant on one player. It has truly been a team effort. Historically the teams have turned to player "A" during those tight, tense moments and in the past you can just hear the words from people who are thinking, "Give it to "Player A", give it to "Player A." But this year, player "A" could be any starter or someone from the "Second wave." People have alluded to this thought in earlier posts, but it was once again apparent yesterday as I watched the ladies play against "K".  Coach Morehouse commented that this game was the best 40 minutes played by the "entire" team - which includes all "Three waves!" Reading the reports from the men's game, and looking at the stats, not as many players played in the game, but one of the bright spots of the evening was Brandon Bosch, a player who has been giving his all during the season, patiently waiting for his chance to help out the team. And yesterday, he did just that. So as the saying goes, there's no "I" in the word "Team!"

[Flying Dutch Fan]

This discussion has prompted me to make my first post here.

I have watched the women play, and would like to add a few things.

I agree it is probably not in the team's best interest to be comparing the different groups, and I think there are reason's we are seeing a difference in scoring.

As stated, the starters are playing against another teams fresh starters.

The others players are coming in against either a slightly tired group, or the other teams second string. To Hope's credit, they have a far deeper bench, and it is no wonder that they are superior to many other teams second unit.

In several of the games this year, the third unit has been playing with about 10 minutes left in the game. The second unit is used to give them a break. At this point, the opponent has got to be getting frustrated with Hope's relentless play, and very tired.

In my opinion, the biggest reason is the difference in style of play. The starting unit for Hope, plays a methodical, half court offense, using a good deal of the shot clock. They are forcing the opponent to expend energy playing defense. The second unit plays an up tempo, fast break style of basketball. Because of the fast break, and pushing the ball, they are able to have more possesions, in the same minutes played. It leads to a greater opportunity to score. An up tempo, fast break style against an opponent that has been playing a great deal of defense can't be a fun thing for the other team.

I agree that the first unit plays great team defense, and they are fantastic at holding teams down. Often we watch the ball pressure defense, and see some frustrated opposing guards. Let's not forget, that they are being backed up by off the ball defense that is preventing any type of pass, and totally distrubting the other team's offense.

All in all, I believe that the combination of the different styles of Hope basketball has lead to great success for the program. Morehouse has used the talent he has to the team's advantage. It may not lead to the stats needed to create All-Americans, but I have a feeling that they are more interested in team success....

Go Hope.

wf - welcome to the board, and a great first post!

I believe there is an additional benefit from what you describe, and that is the difficulty other teams have in preparing for Hope.  In most cases, as you prepare to play against another team, you figure out how to defend against their style of play.  How do you do that against Hope, a team that's style of play might be considered "schizophrenic" (sorry, I just had to use that word).  As a game progresses, your team may start to adapt to how Hope is playing, and then suddenly they are a different team.  Morehouse mixing up players (not sticking to a strict 5 in / 5 out substitution pattern) creates even more varieties in the style of play.   

[MIdoubleA]

I love reading this board because I love watching the women's team play.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to Mo's success with different play styles. Try defending Lange in the post on the first rotation, Snikkers in the post and out on the arc in the second, then Knox in the post in the third rotation. What a handful! Can you imagine what teams must be thinking?

I'm guessing that by now the ladies team is having some serious psychological advantage over their adversaries. How do you even prepare for a team like that?

Which brings me to my suggested topic: how do you stop them?

I am guessing it's going to take some terrible off-night shooting and maybe a coaching mistake (?) for the women to lose. I just can't think of another way you can stop them. What are your thoughts?

[sac]

I think some Hope fans are forgetting a game,...... they aren't unbeatable just undefeated.

http://www.miaa.org/wbb/stats/0708/w119hoab.htm

[MIdoubleA]

I think some Hope fans are forgetting a game,...... they aren't unbeatable just undefeated.

http://www.miaa.org/wbb/stats/0708/w119hoab.htm

I've hardly forget about the scare. I was more or less alluding to; what happened? How did Albion almost beat them? What did they do that nobody else has done?

[NW Hope Fan]

I think some Hope fans are forgetting a game,...... they aren't unbeatable just undefeated.

http://www.miaa.org/wbb/stats/0708/w119hoab.htm

Who knows what happened in the first half of that game, but 8-24 and 2-3 vs. 14-28 and 3-4 will do that to you. They showed the hearts of champions by playing their game in the second half, on a nice steady pace  with average shooting and great D to come back.

No doubt they can be beat, and their biggest challenge after the MIAA tournament may be getting through their region, but opponents will have to play their absolute best and Hope will have to be "off" like that first half of that game for them to lose.

[NW Hope Fan]

How did Albion almost beat them? What did they do that nobody else has done?

Someone there would know better as it is hard to tell from the box or play by play, but on the surface, Albion was Hot and Hope was not. Maybe Albion pressured more of Hope's shots in the first half... And maybe Mo wasn't prepared (I doubt that) for what Albion first threw at him???

Obviously Hope's D tightened up in the second half and the O loosened up... Most importantly they fought through the deficit and battled back.

A loss that day, while possibly changing the polls, would have inspired them the same way. I think they learned a lot from that game...

[mjfasteenwolf]

How did Albion almost beat them? What did they do that nobody else has done?

Someone there would know better as it is hard to tell from the box or play by play, but on the surface, Albion was Hot and Hope was not. Maybe Albion pressured more of Hope's shots in the first half... And maybe Mo wasn't prepared (I doubt that) for what Albion first threw at him???

Obviously Hope's D tightened up in the second half and the O loosened up... Most importantly they fought through the deficit and battled back.

A loss that day, while possibly changing the polls, would have inspired them the same way. I think they learned a lot from that game...

I was at the game so I will provide a few of my insights. Hope struggled immensly (sp) in the first half. Tried to force a lot of passes into the post which Albion was all over. Dekuiper and Cowen came in and opened it up with some perimeter jumpers which seemed to help out the inside game a lot. Also Albion was hitting everything in the first half, and nothign would fall for Hope, a lot of balls that rimmed out.
In the 2nd half, Jordyn Boles caught fire after having an awful first half. Hope just kept clawing back into it and started getting to every lose ball. Mo then turned up the pressure on Albions guards by playing some full court press, which led to a few turnovers, and really threw Albions set offense off since they were not getting into their offense until there was less than 20 seconds left on the shot clock.
Hope kept playing hard, dealt with a really annoying shot clock issue, and battled past some missed free throws to pull it out.