WBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletics Association

[mcmfan]

Flying Dutch Fan,

A follow-up on my earlier post, about the discrepancy in fouls between Hope and HPU.  Your feelng seems to be that things would have been different in a different place.  HPU's secret weapon may be their ability to draw fouls, or maybe, to put it differently, to get the refs to notice the fouls and to call them -- and not just on their home court.  On March 7, 2008, we at McMurry played HPU on our court.  Here are the free throw figures:
McMurry: 15
HPU: 31
We're used to this.  You guys kept them off their routine during the first half of the game, when the fouls were fairly even, but it got out of hand in the second half.

[golfniz1]

I would like to apologize to sac and Carrie Snickkers for the comments I made in a previous post. My choice of words may have been wrong and for that I do big time apologize to these 2 people and I hope you except my apology.  Now on to my take Hope has a very good basketball team and are very well coached. Those girls played hard and got alot of cujos from this HPU fan.  Hope will for sure be back and as strong as ever next year. So girls keep your head up and good luck.
If I mispelled Carries last name I apologize for that too.

[Hoper Upper]

On a neutral court, Hope wins.  If HPU played at Hope College, they would lose by 10. 

The HPU players were "high fiving" the refs before the game.  Ridiculous...

[Ralph Turner]

On a neutral court, Hope wins.  If HPU played at Hope College, they would lose by 10. 

The HPU players were "high fiving" the refs before the game.  Ridiculous...

No, that was not a "high five".

The "knuckles to knuckles" greeting is used by players in this part of the country as a "handshake" at many levels in the pre-game introductions, especially where you have three quick "handshakes" with the referees.

[dballa]

The HPU players ALWAYS go up to the refs before the game when their name is announced.  Actually almost every team in the ASC does that as an act of sportsmanship towards the officials.  All coaches get a handshake from the officials before the game, why can't the players??  Your statement implies they did it to gain favoritism amongst the officials.  That is a ridiculous statement on your part.

When HPU invited Hope to the center of the court to say "The Lord's Prayer", was that to rub in the win too?

[Ralph Turner]

On a neutral court, Hope wins.  If HPU played at Hope College, they would lose by 10.  ...

I am glad that you have quantified the home court advantage for Hope at +7.5 points.

That is a useful statistic going forward.  I will submit the 7.5 point Hope home court advantage to the Calvin and Albion fans for their consideration.   (It works for men and women, right?)    

Actually Massey's MOV has not been updated to reflect Saturday's game, and predicts #1 HPU 64.27, #2 Hope 58.78.

I think that Massey hit it.

Massey MOV

Aoff minus Bdef plus (Ah + Bh )/ 4 = A score

HPU = 74.82 - 12.83 = 62.99 + {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 64.27

Boff minus Adef minus (Ah + Bh)/4  = B score

Hope= 77.44 - 17.38 = 60.06 - {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 58.78

[BBenthusiast]

The following stats are official percentages from the ASC website.  HPU's 3 top scorers have made and shot more FT than any other players in the conference.  The team stats show that HPU has made more than any other team has shot.  Hope this helps with the speculation.

FREE THROW PCT (Min. 2.0 made per game)
## Player-Team               Cl  G   FTM   FTA   Pct
----------------------------------------------------
1.Stacey Blalock-HPU....... SR 31   139   165  .842
2.Marci Trogus-UTT.........       26    64    76  .842
3.Courtney Davis-SU........     25    89   107  .832
4.Melissa Thomas-UTT.......    26    66    80  .825
5.Meia Daniels-HPU......... SR 31   138   170  .812
6.Brittany Burton-TLU...... FR 25    51    63  .810
7.Rosemary Green-MC......JR 26    75    94  .798
8.Janice Mitchell-SRSU..... SR 24    60    76  .789
9.Lindsay Eaton-UTT........    26    80   102  .784
10.Kimberly Hoffman-HPU. SR 31   130   166  .783
11.Ericka Baker-UTD......... SR 25    88   115  .765
12.Denee McKay-LETU.........    25    65    85  .765
13.Monica Enriquez-SU.......    24    86   113  .761
14.Kristen Baskin-LETU......     21    88   116  .759
15.Anesia McBride-MC....... JR 26    70    93  .753

FREE THROW PERCENTAGES
## Team                  G    FTM   FTA   Pct
---------------------------------------------
1.Howard Payne........ 31    633   838  .755
2.Schreiner........... 25        461   634  .727
3.Mississippi College. 26    372   516  .721
4.Texas-Tyler......... 26       450   626  .719
5.Texas-Dallas........ 26      328   473  .693
6.Ozarks.............. 25        313   465  .673
7.Sul Ross State...... 24    314   467  .672
8.Mary Hardin-Baylor.. 27  380   568  .669
9.LeTourneau.......... 25    356   537  .663
10.Louisiana College... 26  355   544  .653
11.East Texas Baptist.. 24  276   425  .649
12.Hardin-Simmons...... 27  326   503  .648
13.McMurry............. 30       368   570  .646
14.Concordia Texas..... 25  370   574  .645
15.Texas Lutheran...... 25  221   346  .639

[Flying Dutch Fan]

The HPU players ALWAYS go up to the refs before the game when their name is announced.  Actually almost every team in the ASC does that as an act of sportsmanship towards the officials.  All coaches get a handshake from the officials before the game, why can't the players??  Your statement implies they did it to gain favoritism amongst the officials.  That is a ridiculous statement on your part.

It's not ridiculous if you've never seen it before.  Any player who did that in the MIAA might be seen as seeking to get an advantage.  Maybe a bad assumption on the part of Hoper Upper, but no reason for you to over-react. 

When HPU invited Hope to the center of the court to say "The Lord's Prayer", was that to rub in the win too?

WOW - if this is the kind of response you provide after winning, we better get some extra security lined up for the final four, just in case you lose.  That invitation was a class act by HPU, too bad you can't follow suit.

[dballa]

I know it's a class act on a part of the HPU players, they do it every game.  But to try to imply that they wanted to gain some kind of favoritism from the refs is worth commenting on.

If you look at the previous page on here I did comment on the Hope players and not in a negative manner.

[JACKET84]

I didn't know if anybody else saw the same thing I did, but I was surprised at the language the Hope head coach used towards the end of the game.  Also, did you see the way he greeted Coach Kielsmeier, and the way he attempted to run after the refs? The assistant coach had to restrain him.   Did his emotion get the best of him?  It just looked like he wasn't setting a good example to his players in a loss. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Time for all of you HPU folks to just go away. 

[Hoper Upper]

BBEnthusiast, I appreciate you providing the stats, because they prove clearly how bad the away teams got jobbed in Texas.   The stats prove that HPU was "given" the games by the refs. 

HPU averaged 15 fouls per game (433/29) during the regular season.

Yet, playing Hope, a team that is much better than any they played during the year, HPU  suddenly commits only 6 fouls.

Further, this whole "HPU draws fouls" is simply a myth.  Go back and redo the numbers and compare free throws per game.  (Note that HPU played more games than anyone else).  You'll find they shot more than their opponents on average, but only about 7 more...which is easily explained by the strategy of "fouling at the end of the game when you are losing".

In any event, HPU better not clean off a place for the trophy just yet.  We'll sit what happens when the refs call the game fairly.

[David Collinge]

The HPU players ALWAYS go up to the refs before the game when their name is announced.  Actually almost every team in the ASC does that as an act of sportsmanship towards the officials.  All coaches get a handshake from the officials before the game, why can't the players??  Your statement implies they did it to gain favoritism amongst the officials.  That is a ridiculous statement on your part.

It's not ridiculous if you've never seen it before.  Any player who did that in the MIAA might be seen as seeking to get an advantage.  Maybe a bad assumption on the part of Hoper Upper, but no reason for you to over-react. 

I'd never seen it before, and I thought it was a great idea.  As an entirely impartial observer in this, I agree with dballa's take.

[Hwbb]

On a neutral court, Hope wins.  If HPU played at Hope College, they would lose by 10.  ...

I am glad that you have quantified the home court advantage for Hope at +7.5 points.

That is a useful statistic going forward.  I will submit the 7.5 point Hope home court advantage to the Calvin and Albion fans for their consideration.   (It works for men and women, right?)    

Actually Massey's MOV has not been updated to reflect Saturday's game, and predicts #1 HPU 64.27, #2 Hope 58.78.

I think that Massey hit it.

Massey MOV

Aoff minus Bdef plus (Ah + Bh )/ 4 = A score

HPU = 74.82 - 12.83 = 62.99 + {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 64.27

Boff minus Adef minus (Ah + Bh)/4  = B score

Hope= 77.44 - 17.38 = 60.06 - {(3.82 + 1.49)/4} = 58.78

Mr. Turner, if you believe Massey "hit it" on the HPU - Hope comparison, is it accurate to assume you think Massey's ratings are generally correct overall. If so, then might you also agree that the continuing questions about the NCAA, its criteria for evaluating teams, and its overall stewardship of the D3 tournament are legit (nonwithstanding the NCAA rulebook about ignoring other polls, as you pointed out previously). According to Massey, HPU is better than Hope, and they proved it on the court. Okay. But also according to Massey, #1 and #2 played too early (been debated extensively already); 9 of the top 12 teams were on the same half of the bracket; Hope and UW-Whitewater each had to play three top-12 teams, and Hope all on the road; HPU just one, and neither Oglethorpe nor Messiah played any top-12 teams (and that had nothing to do with Thomas More's upset loss). You look at these numbers for a single game to support your view that HPU was and is the better team. Fair enough--they did win the game, after all. But can you also understand why some others can also look at these same numbers and continue to ask, something's just not right. Or fair. Which, of course, life isn't either. Besy wishes to HPU this weekend.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

The HPU players ALWAYS go up to the refs before the game when their name is announced.  Actually almost every team in the ASC does that as an act of sportsmanship towards the officials.  All coaches get a handshake from the officials before the game, why can't the players??  Your statement implies they did it to gain favoritism amongst the officials.  That is a ridiculous statement on your part.

It's not ridiculous if you've never seen it before.  Any player who did that in the MIAA might be seen as seeking to get an advantage.  Maybe a bad assumption on the part of Hoper Upper, but no reason for you to over-react. 

I'd never seen it before, and I thought it was a great idea.  As an entirely impartial observer in this, I agree with dballa's take.

I agree it's a great idea - but the point is that is was something never seen before, and so it might have appeared to be something it wasn't.  Its very easy for someone to be mistaken about the intentions of something that they have never witnessed before.  dballa's simple explanation was fine - but then why the hostility about the prayer after the game?