FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[WithasilentK]

@ K: So, it sounds like you've seen Cornish play twice?  Good to know you've got a full body of work to examine him with.  And for the record, he's been Pre-season All-American twice.  When you consider Bethel went 5-5 last year, it is pretty understandable they didn't get anyone on the All-American team.  As someone who has seen Cornish up close for 4 years, in both games and practice, I think he is a very good.  He has excellent cover skills, knows how to make a play on the ball when it's up for grabs and is very physical against the run.  He has also improved each year.  You're assuming alot about a guy to call him selfish because he is a ball hawk.  Yes, he's an aggressive corner, but going for the pick doesn't mean he's downright selfish.  The thing that sets him apart, as VOJ pointed out, is that he is an excellent special teams player as well.  He blocks kicks, has converted a fake punt and run several KOR for TDs.  He's the real deal.

I've watched him play much more than twice.  My assessment is that he's a good corner but goes for the interception too often.  I think this is general hurts a team, Carleton last year was a perfect example.  He's a decent run stopper and a very good athlete.  His ability to go up for a ball when it's up for grabs...average.  I think he has the athletic ability to be a great player, but as a CB is average.

I am talking nothing of his ST play and feel he is the right build and athletic ability to be a great ST player, but 1 KOR for TD 3 years ago, none in the past 2.

Then I'm going to have to assume you are a pathetic judge of talent.  Or, you are simply more insightful than the MIAC coaches who named him 2nd team All- MIAC as a sophomore and 1st team All-MIAC as a Junior.  Or just smarter than D3football.com's all-region voters, who thought that as a junior he was good enough to warrant 2nd Team All-West region.

Face it, you are in the minority opinion regarding Cornish.  And the people arguing against you actually have some credentials, rather than your 89 posts on a message board. 

That, or the MIAC and West region were below average the last two years, thus allowing an average corner like Cornish to make their post-season award teams.

Oh, and if we want to argue based on 1 play from a guys junior year, I saw Ziller get handled a couple times by Bethel in 2007.  Guess he was just average as well...or does that line of argument now hit too close to home? 

I am in the minority, and I do believe the voters got a lot of things wrong in their All-Region picks last year. I never thought I'd be in the majority when criticizing him, but I know what teams have looked at when going against Bethel's D over the past 4 years, and if you're a stud corner, than they should not be looking at throwing at you, which they have with Cornish.

I agree, one play does not make a player, and I don't doubt Ziller had some bad plays in the drubbing that Bethel put on Carleton in 2007.  His improvement was very noticeable between his junior and senior year, and he lived up to his preseason All-American pick.  The play I pointed out was one of a few that I would argue shot Bethel's season last year.

I feel that you have no idea of the credentials of my football knowledge, and have no way of knowing, that argument is absolutely mute.

But, I will give you his All-MIAC selection.  In last years class, I would say he deserved first or second team All-MIAC.  Preseason All-American (which is not a distinction in my eyes unless you earn All-American, barring injuries) and All-Region?  No, I don't think he deserved it.

I stand by my assessment that he goes for the pic way too much which can hurt his team and is average at going for the ball in the air.  I'm not trying to stir arguments, it's only my opinion.

[DustySJU]

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Frank Rickard a happy birthday.

Maybe he'll come out of hibernation for his birthday.

Dusty, did you remember to send him a card?  8)

No comment.... put Willy Wonka in touch with him.

In other news TDT has once again combined felines, food and footballs in his latest installment and insider look in "Scouting The Auggies"... read it now at www.JohnnieFootball.com - The official underground perspective on Johnnie Football.

Developing....

[DuffMan]

I feel that you have no idea of the credentials of my football knowledge, and have no way of knowing, that argument is absolutely mute.

Mute or moot?

[DutchHawk]

VOJ - I'm assumimg that the reference to the idiot in the replay booth not knowing what a TD pass looks like is a reference to last Saturday's Indiana/Iowa tilt that I addressed a few pages back. I, too, thought that it was a TD until I saw the low angle replay. It showed, at least to my aged eyes, that the receiver's foot never touched the ground inbounds. You could always see air between his foot and the ground. Do you disagree?

Actually it looked to me like he grazed a foot in bounds, and I heard the guys from ESPN talking about it and they had the same thoughts I did...Indiana should not have fallen apart like they did anyway...blowing a lead like that and then allowing a TD in the final minute like they did is disgraceful, I have a feeling that after blowing leads vs Michigan, Northwestern and Iowa, the Badgers go in and open a can on the Hoosiers Saturday

There is a low angle replay i saw off the BTN and it never looks like his foot hits. Should it have been overturned? Maybe not, fact is, with those 7 points they still lose by 11.

[WashedUp]

Then I'm going to have to assume you are a pathetic judge of talent.  Or, you are simply more insightful than the MIAC coaches who named him 2nd team All- MIAC as a sophomore and 1st team All-MIAC as a Junior.  Or just smarter than D3football.com's all-region voters, who thought that as a junior he was good enough to warrant 2nd Team All-West region.

Face it, you are in the minority opinion regarding Cornish.  And the people arguing against you actually have some credentials, rather than your 89 posts on a message board. 

That, or the MIAC and West region were below average the last two years, thus allowing an average corner like Cornish to make their post-season award teams.

Oh, and if we want to argue based on 1 play from a guys junior year, I saw Ziller get handled a couple times by Bethel in 2007.  Guess he was just average as well...or does that line of argument now hit too close to home? 

[/quote]

Once again, I am not saying anything about Cornish specifically, because I have not seen him play enough to judge his ability.  Just because an opinion is in the minority does not make it wrong, brining that up is idiotic.  Also, 89 posts does not make you qualified to argue, but 158 posts is enough to refute his argument? 

[PRF2009A]

VOJ - I'm assumimg that the reference to the idiot in the replay booth not knowing what a TD pass looks like is a reference to last Saturday's Indiana/Iowa tilt that I addressed a few pages back. I, too, thought that it was a TD until I saw the low angle replay. It showed, at least to my aged eyes, that the receiver's foot never touched the ground inbounds. You could always see air between his foot and the ground. Do you disagree?

Actually it looked to me like he grazed a foot in bounds, and I heard the guys from ESPN talking about it and they had the same thoughts I did...Indiana should not have fallen apart like they did anyway...blowing a lead like that and then allowing a TD in the final minute like they did is disgraceful, I have a feeling that after blowing leads vs Michigan, Northwestern and Iowa, the Badgers go in and open a can on the Hoosiers Saturday

There is a low angle replay i saw off the BTN and it never looks like his foot hits. Should it have been overturned? Maybe not, fact is, with those 7 points they still lose by 11.

Would have made for quite an incredible comeback if Indiana gets that TD...

Interesting gopher recruiting note.  (I am sure there are PLENTY of stories just like this one regarding gopher missed opportunities)

#95 Karl Klug is a MN boy.  He didn't get a sniff from the gophers coming out of high school.  Iowa offered him a scholarship and now is his a junior starting at D Tackle on one of the best defenses in the nation.

[sjusection105]

Interesting gopher recruiting note.  (I am sure there are PLENTY of stories just like this one regarding gopher missed opportunities)

#95 Karl Klug is a MN boy.  He didn't get a sniff from the gophers coming out of high school.  Iowa offered him a scholarship and now is his a junior starting at D Tackle on one of the best defenses in the nation.

This has been going on for years with the Gophers. Back when Alverez took over at Wisconsin, my parents neighbor (farm boy) was not given a look by the Gophers & Jim Wacker. This kid was also state champion in the discus, ran on the 4x100 relay team and is still holds the high school record holder for points scored in a career. Never a look from the Gophers because he was a RB & a LB (they were full at those positions) Alverez made him a TE and now he has a Rose Bowl ring. I'm not certain, but he may have won the Big 10 discus title at some point as he lettered 4 years in track as well as football.

[VOJ]

VOJ - I'm assumimg that the reference to the idiot in the replay booth not knowing what a TD pass looks like is a reference to last Saturday's Indiana/Iowa tilt that I addressed a few pages back. I, too, thought that it was a TD until I saw the low angle replay. It showed, at least to my aged eyes, that the receiver's foot never touched the ground inbounds. You could always see air between his foot and the ground. Do you disagree?

Actually it looked to me like he grazed a foot in bounds, and I heard the guys from ESPN talking about it and they had the same thoughts I did...Indiana should not have fallen apart like they did anyway...blowing a lead like that and then allowing a TD in the final minute like they did is disgraceful, I have a feeling that after blowing leads vs Michigan, Northwestern and Iowa, the Badgers go in and open a can on the Hoosiers Saturday

There is a low angle replay i saw off the BTN and it never looks like his foot hits. Should it have been overturned? Maybe not, fact is, with those 7 points they still lose by 11.

Would have made for quite an incredible comeback if Indiana gets that TD...

Interesting gopher recruiting note.  (I am sure there are PLENTY of stories just like this one regarding gopher missed opportunities)

#95 Karl Klug is a MN boy.  He didn't get a sniff from the gophers coming out of high school.  Iowa offered him a scholarship and now is his a junior starting at D Tackle on one of the best defenses in the nation.

It already was an incredible comeback and I would be a little less aggressive with my praise of Iowa as one of the best defenses in the nation...its not like they shut down Oregon, Texas or Cincinnati

As far a Klug not getting a sniff, are you surprised?  I am sure the posters here could put up an incredible list of talented guys who got away from the Gophers whether they were recruiting them or not, and Brew is not really doing anything to build the wall around the state to keep all the talent.

The "if you build it, they will come strategy" works in the movies but I am not sure it will do much for Golden Rodent football...

[hazzben]

Once again, I am not saying anything about Cornish specifically, because I have not seen him play enough to judge his ability.  Just because an opinion is in the minority does not make it wrong, brining that up is idiotic.  Also, 89 posts does not make you qualified to argue, but 158 posts is enough to refute his argument? 

No, my 158 posts don't make me qualified.  But then, I'm not arguing that I'm the 'qualified judgment' we should care about.  What I am saying is that I'll take the opinions of the MIAC coaches over anyone on this board any day of the week when it comes to judging talent.  They are the ones who break down film, scout opposing players and coach their own players and game plan against guys.  Their opinion matters, and twice they've viewed Cornish worthy of All-MIAC honors, and I think we can assume he'll garnish a 3rd this year.  That, and the people that vote on D3football.com's All-Region team also trump any qualification you, K or I might have.  Those men have perspective (they see far more games from far more conferences) and experience far beyond anything we bring to the table.

No, being in the minority doesn't necessarily make someone wrong.  However, you'd have to consider, as I did in my post, the people who make up the majority.  Now if you are in the minority, but the others in the minority are the experts, then I'd say your minority opinion carries some weight.  However, if you're in the minority and all the experts are in the majority, then your minority position appears much more dubious.  It is also telling to note the numerical superiority of the majority in this case.  So far, K is the only one to come out and say that he thinks "Cornish is an average corner."  That is a pretty lonely minority.  But maybe if Cornish gets All-MIAC for a third year and All-Region again, maybe then we could agree he is better than average. 

[D O.C.]

Since I have a bye/buy week....

brining  or bringing?

[WithasilentK]

Once again, I am not saying anything about Cornish specifically, because I have not seen him play enough to judge his ability.  Just because an opinion is in the minority does not make it wrong, brining that up is idiotic.  Also, 89 posts does not make you qualified to argue, but 158 posts is enough to refute his argument?  

No, my 158 posts don't make me qualified.  But then, I'm not arguing that I'm the 'qualified judgment' we should care about.  What I am saying is that I'll take the opinions of the MIAC coaches over anyone on this board any day of the week when it comes to judging talent.  They are the ones who break down film, scout opposing players and coach their own players and game plan against guys.  Their opinion matters, and twice they've viewed Cornish worthy of All-MIAC honors, and I think we can assume he'll garnish a 3rd this year.  That, and the people that vote on D3football.com's All-Region team also trump any qualification you, K or I might have.  Those men have perspective (they see far more games from far more conferences) and experience far beyond anything we bring to the table.

No, being in the minority doesn't necessarily make someone wrong.  However, you'd have to consider, as I did in my post, the people who make up the majority.  Now if you are in the minority, but the others in the minority are the experts, then I'd say your minority opinion carries some weight.  However, if you're in the minority and all the experts are in the majority, then your minority position appears much more dubious.  It is also telling to note the numerical superiority of the majority in this case.  So far, K is the only one to come out and say that he thinks "Cornish is an average corner."  That is a pretty lonely minority.  But maybe if Cornish gets All-MIAC for a third year and All-Region again, maybe then we could agree he is better than average.  

Well, I will take the top half or so of the MIAC coaches judgement any day of the week (one of which is Bethel's coach), I'm not so impressed by the others.  That is an argument for another day.

For your All-Region voters comment, here is my take:  Yes they have a lot of football experience and watched a lot of teams play, but they do not watch every player they vote for play.  They have to go off of stats and publicity plays too large of a role in it.  Cornish had good stats and got a lot of publicity with his too PRE-season All-America picks.  I'm sure he made a couple big plays.  But my argument is that 6 picks and the bigs plays look great, but for a corner it can OFTEN be the result of selling out for the pic, leaving your D in a bad situation too many times.  My example earlier wasn't a one time deal, that was scouted and called in that situation because they knew he was going to go for the 5 yard hitch fake.

He's a great athlete, but as a corner, he's only above average.  (I moved it to above average, but won't go higher)

I get that I'm the only one on here that has said that and am going against All-Region voters, and I am completely OK with my judgement being different than theirs, and believe my football knowledge and experience is sufficient to give my opinion.

Note:  In my All-Region voters comment, I am not ragging on them.  There's no way they can watch every player play and they have to go off stats and publicity to a degree, but that doesn't mean they will always get it right.

[hazzben]

Well, I will take the top half or so of the MIAC coaches judgement any day of the week (one of which is Bethel's coach), I'm not so impressed by the others.  That is an argument for another day.

I'm tired of the Cornish argument.  But just for the fun of it, lets pretend it is another day.  Who would be the coaches you'd rank outside of the top half of the MIAC? 

I just think people who haven't coached (not saying you haven't K, I don't know) tend to downplay the difficulty of the job.  It is one thing to 'know' stuff about football, have been a former player, etc.  It is another to actually coach a position, coordinate an offense or defense, much less be a head coach.  It is easy to throw stones at the guys who coach each week, and some are certainly better than others.  However, I'd like to see any of us do any better.  I guess your comment strikes me as a little bold.  Were you insinuating that you understand the game of football better than several MIAC head coaches?

So, if you'll play, who would be the coaches you put in the category of 'unimpressive' and whose judgment you don't seem to respect?

[WithasilentK]

Well, I will take the top half or so of the MIAC coaches judgement any day of the week (one of which is Bethel's coach), I'm not so impressed by the others.  That is an argument for another day.

I'm tired of the Cornish argument.  But just for the fun of it, lets pretend it is another day.  Who would be the coaches you'd rank outside of the top half of the MIAC? 

I just think people who haven't coached (not saying you haven't K, I don't know) tend to downplay the difficulty of the job.  It is one thing to 'know' stuff about football, have been a former player, etc.  It is another to actually coach a position, coordinate an offense or defense, much less be a head coach.  It is easy to throw stones at the guys who coach each week, and some are certainly better than others.  However, I'd like to see any of us do any better.  I guess your comment strikes me as a little bold.  Were you insinuating that you understand the game of football better than several MIAC head coaches?

So, if you'll play, who would be the coaches you put in the category of 'unimpressive' and whose judgment you don't seem to respect?

Good, I was running out of different ways to spin my argument.

I completely agree that coaching is much more difficult than people usually give credit for.  I'll do this in two parts:

Part one, and this is my ranking of both their coaching ability and later what I call coaching judgement.  I would say the top half are this, in no particular order....
Bethel (no doubt one of the top coaches)
SJU (I don't even know who is coaching them now but whoever it is they are pretty good)
Carleton (are you surprised?)
UST (still don't like the guy)

Fringe guys:
Auggie Tech (I like their offense because it is so much scheme. They get some very raw talent and their coach does a good job in his offensive scheme, but I won't put him in the top half because I want to kick their receivers in the pants every time I watch them run their routes...If you haven't seen, it's 5 yards, then if they didn't get the ball, start jogging.)
CCM (this one might get me in trouble)

Bottom:
St Olaf (I think he'll learn eventually, but I am a little unimpressed so far)
Gustavus (he's young, I don't really know much about his gameplans, they're pretty bad right now, but this will have to wait a few years)
Hamline (its Hamline)

Part two (and this is difficult to explain):
I was in no way trying to insinuate that I know more about the game of football than these coaches.  They have all gained knowledge of the game over many years of working under head coaches and in different systems.

I was more going for that I think some of the guys are not the brightest bulbs when it comes to parts of their football judgement.  I'm trying to think of examples that I can give without starting a wildfire, but this is a good one: Meidt.  I know he's not here anymore, but when he was, I wouldn't have listened to a word come out of his mouth about a player on a different team.  Another example: I talked to someone that was at the UofM proday last year, and Hamline had a player there.  Apparently Hamline has a coach that has connections to the U of M.  The person said the player was not very good and looked like he didn't belong there.  I think that's bad judgement by the coach and makes the MIAC look bad.

So, I guess coaching "judgement" is what I was trying to get at.  I would not put my football knowledge up against ANY head coach in the MIAC.

[retagent]

I'd like to commend both hazzben and silentK for their high level of discussion. There have been a few ad hominum shots, but mostly it has been an argument on the merits, and what exactly makes someone an "expert." Just don't forget, we're fans, and this is what we do. Opinions are just that, and as we have heard before, everyone has at least one.

hazz - here's a paraphrase of one of my favorite quotes from Thoreau's essay on Civil Disobedience.
                             If you're right, you already have a majority of one.
He flowers it up a whole bunch, but in the end, that's what he's saying

[finsleft]

Hey TC, thanks for missing me. Hunting is underway, but my absence can be better explained by the close scrape my nose has recently taken with the grindstone. Hunting related, perhaps, since 4-day weekends produce 3-day work weeks.

Kudos, also, to the football detour down which this board has been led by WASK and Hazzy.
Nevertheless, my appearance here today is only to share this funny bit from The Smoking Gun about the Halloween arrest for DUI of a guy wearing a breathalyzer costume. The "blow here" tube is strategically placed on the lower portion of the costume, which has 3 sobriety levels: Boring, Life of the Party, and Sotally Tober.