FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[SagatagSam]

I don't know how wise it is to be playing the "look where my school will be in a decade" game right now, Mr. MIAC.
There have been rumblings that there is a higher education economic bubble that is about to burst. In the end, it may end up hurting SJU and UST equally. And, I'm not going to claim to know precisely how this will all pan out (assuming there actually is a bubble and that it will burst).
But, for the sake of discussion and "poke you in the eye with a stick" style of debate, let's assume those economists that warn of a higher ed bubble bursting are correct. Frankly, I'd be more worried about the bubble if I am a Tommie.
Like many individuals the housing market, many schools are getting in over their heads, building structures for programs for which there is no organic demand in the labor market (see: the law school bubble http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/a-visual-representation-of-the-law-school-bubble/). In short, there is too much supply, not enough demand. (Side note: I'd hire you as my lawyer, Bench.)

The folks on the corner of Cretin and Summit can pontificate all they want about how much money they have, what they are doing with it, and all of the grand places it shall take them.

I'll take the "slow and steady as she goes" approach of the Benedictines at Saint John's--even if it means an ugly defeat at the hands of St. Thomas on the gridiron every now and again.

[OzJohnnie]

A great write here:  http://www.foxsportsnorth.com/10/26/11/Gagliardi-a-rock-of-stability-at-St-John/landing.html?blockID=590106&feedID=3793

Nice.  That guy is a good writer.  I'm a little homesick.

The family and I are visiting the folks in January.  I'm disappointed that football season will be over.  Particularly after reading that.  Bummer.

[Retired Old Rat]

At the risk of posting something that might belong in the "My Dad can beat up your Dad" forum, the article linked by Stanbob is very well done.  The writer went beyond the headlines.

Thank you John Gagliardi.

Another day that I am proud to say I am a Johnnie.

[Mr.MIAC]

I don't know how wise it is to be playing the "look where my school will be in a decade" game right now, Mr. MIAC.
There have been rumblings that there is a higher education economic bubble that is about to burst. In the end, it may end up hurting SJU and UST equally. And, I'm not going to claim to know precisely how this will all pan out (assuming there actually is a bubble and that it will burst).
But, for the sake of discussion and "poke you in the eye with a stick" style of debate, let's assume those economists that warn of a higher ed bubble bursting are correct. Frankly, I'd be more worried about the bubble if I am a Tommie.
Like many individuals the housing market, many schools are getting in over their heads, building structures for programs for which there is no organic demand in the labor market (see: the law school bubble http://abovethelaw.com/2011/06/a-visual-representation-of-the-law-school-bubble/). In short, there is too much supply, not enough demand. (Side note: I'd hire you as my lawyer, Bench.)

The folks on the corner of Cretin and Summit can pontificate all they want about how much money they have, what they are doing with it, and all of the grand places it shall take them.

I'll take the "slow and steady as she goes" approach of the Benedictines at Saint John's--even if it means an ugly defeat at the hands of St. Thomas on the gridiron every now and again.

I think you make some interesting points, especially in regards to the higher education economic bubble.  Market adjustments may bring down the relative cost of private education or such schools might start offering less/charging more for "quality of life" services.  I also think that some universities have gotten in over their heads with building new facilities to compete.  A good local example is Hamline.  Take a look at recent press on their new student center.  They are in serious financial straits and enrollment has been down for a few years.  The new head decided to go forward with a new student center to attract applicants, but did so without the donations in place.  Hamline is basically mortgaging its future for a student center; one of the results was the university's recent downgrade.  It's likely going to be a lot tougher for them to finance in the future.  I wouldn't be surprised if Hamline disappeared or dramatically reinvented itself for the worse over the next decade.

People are still going to want degrees.  If anything a Master's degree is more often a prerequisite for top jobs.  The market will simply be more fickle in the future.  People will want value for money and this means that both cost and university reputation (read career prospects) will have greater influence.  The legal market is a unique animal right now and in my view one should have some serious reservations about law school unless they are getting near a full ride or accepted to a T14 law school.  Some don't like the fact that UST restarted a law school, but in my view their goal is not as much to coexist with other schools in the Twin Cities as to put one or maybe at a stretch two out of business.

I don't agree with your assessment that UST would be in an equal/worse off position that SJU if a major adjustment does happen.  SJU can take the "slow and steady as she goes" approach but they will likely find it far more difficult than UST to provide value.  Unfortunately SJU doesn't benefit from a major urban center where it can funnel students into the best internships and jobs.  I don't think students looking for the best employment prospects in MN would likely choose SJU (or many other private schools) over UST.  The key to UST's success is their pool of donors.  I don't know of another MN school with such a large group of major players in business.  With greater resources UST will be able to offer far more in scholarships.  The cornerstone of the current $500 million campaign is a massive endowment for undergraduate and graduate scholarships.  This is linked to UST's plan to dramatically raise entrance standards over the coming years; big scholarships, paired with solid career prospects, attract some of the brightest students who succeed and in turn the reputation for success continues to build.  Without a major injection of funds or some other shift it's unclear whether SJU could keep up and they will likely start looking more like a bad value proposition.  SJU might be a special place, but at what cost.

[tommiegun]

ROR, she made the right call.

[BDB]

MR MIAC,

Lighten up, Francis. Both schools are excellent. Quit trying to make UST look good by putting SJU down. Like peeing against the wind.

[Mr.MIAC]

ROR, she made the right call.

^ I think it depends somewhat on where/what she wants to practice.  That said...generally speaking, agreed.

[Mr.MIAC]

MR MIAC,

Lighten up, Frances.

Didn't quite get the Frances reference.  Lighten up...this is about as light as I get...

[Mr.MIAC]

MR MIAC,

Lighten up, Francis. Both schools are excellent. Quit trying to make UST look good by putting SJU down. Like peeing against the wind.

I'm not trying to put SJU down, nor am I trying to build UST up by doing so.  Look at my assessment...my case for UST in the last post is built around its independent merits, not its merits in relation to SJU.  Further, I'm simply providing a back and forth response to SagatagSam's argument, which he stated is meant to be part of some sort of "poke you in the eye" debate.  Why can't we just talk openly about these things without people taking reasoned assessment as a putdown?  I know that UST has plenty of shortcomings and people are free to mention them in a discussion on MIAC schools.  However, I will say that UST football is the bees knees at the moment...

[WashedUp]

I'm not trying to put SJU down, nor am I trying to build UST up by doing so. 

I often find that blowing out someone else's candle makes mine appear brighter.

[OzJohnnie]

MR MIAC,

Lighten up, Frances.

Didn't quite get the Frances reference.  Lighten up...this is about as light as I get...

AAAAAAARRRRRMY TRAINING, SIR!

[Mr.MIAC]

I'm not trying to put SJU down, nor am I trying to build UST up by doing so. 

I often find that blowing out someone else's candle makes mine appear brighter.

Point taken.  There are pages and pages of back and forth banter on this board, which often gets very personal.  For some reason a few of my posts, though rather impersonal, have caused a stir.  Maybe we should all just agree not to get too far off the topic of football and the world will be a better place.  I'm in favor...

[USTBench]

MR MIAC,

Lighten up, Frances.

Didn't quite get the Frances reference.  Lighten up...this is about as light as I get...

That's the fact, JACK!

+k for Stripes references



AAAAAAARRRRRMY TRAINING, SIR!

[SagatagSam]

Mr. MIAC, I find your seemingly unshakable faith in a large urban center as crucial to a successful school a bit disturbing. Are there great schools that benefit from large metropolitan areas? YES. But, you seem to completely ignore those enormously successful schools that live outside of your cherished beltway of a major metro area. Were your premise true the following schools would be in the same so-called disadvantaged neighborhood as Saint John's:

Carleton, St. Olaf, Clemson, Middlebury, Penn State (uh oh, ROR), Virginia, Dartmouth, Cornell, Virginia Tech, College of William and Mary, Georgia, Syracuse, Auburn, Alabama, Florida, Miami (OH), Notre Dame, Purdue, Mizzou, Amherst, Indiana, UConn, Texas A&M, Michigan State, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Williams College, Oklahoma State.......

I'm not trying to say an urban center isn't an asset. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that prospective college students do not share your metropolitan-centric view of the world.

As it turns out, for those of us behind the pine curtain the world does not end at Maple Grove. For us, that's where it truly begins.

[Mr.MIAC]

Mr. MIAC, I find your seemingly unshakable faith in a large urban center as crucial to a successful school a bit disturbing. Are there great schools that benefit from large metropolitan areas? YES. But, you seem to completely ignore those enormously successful schools that live outside of your cherished beltway of a major metro area. Were your premise true the following schools would be in the same so-called disadvantaged neighborhood as Saint John's:

Carleton, St. Olaf, Clemson, Middlebury, Penn State (uh oh, ROR), Virginia, Dartmouth, Cornell, Virginia Tech, College of William and Mary, Georgia, Syracuse, Auburn, Alabama, Florida, Miami (OH), Notre Dame, Purdue, Mizzou, Amherst, Indiana, UConn, Texas A&M, Michigan State, Iowa, Iowa State, Kansas, Williams College, Oklahoma State.......

I'm not trying to say an urban center isn't an asset. I'm just trying to get you to acknowledge that prospective college students do not share your metropolitan-centric view of the world.

As it turns out, for those of us behind the pine curtain the world does not end at Maple Grove. For us, that's where it truly begins.

I've got a response if you want it, but it will have to be via PM.  I'm sticking to football from here on out.