FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[sjusection105]

Reading through the Bethel v. Hamline Preview, this stuck out to me:

The matchup: Saturday's contest between the Pipers and the Royals will be the 51st meeting between these two opponents. Hamline currently holds the 27-23 advantage over the Royals, dating back to their first game—which was nonconference then—in 1952. Bethel has been victorious in the last 18 matchups, however, dating back to 1996.

That quote says a lot about what Coach J has done with the Bethel program. Before he got here, we couldn't even compete with Hamline. Go back to 1989 and imagine telling the MIAC coaches that 25 years from then Bethel would have the same HC, he'd have a winning percentage over .700 and multiple league crowns and they'd have laughed you out of the room.

We were Macalaster/Hamline bad. And now we're perennially one of the best teams in one of the nations best conferences. And Coach J and the staff are still doing it without the bling of other programs in terms of facilities and financial aid dollars. It's an impressive feat!

yet you still feel the need to vandalize our rocks.

That makes me wonder if it's possible that Hamline could find a coach that could get them to the playoffs.  I doubt it.

This makes me laugh,but this could be serious business. As an example the kid who ran onto the field at the Ohio State game last week (and was taken down body slammed by the strength & conditioning coach) lost his scholarship ...and he was a Sr. engineering student.

[GoldandBlueBU]

This makes me laugh,but this could be serious business. As an example the kid who ran onto the field at the Ohio State game last week (and was taken down body slammed by the strength & conditioning coach) lost his scholarship ...and he was a Sr. engineering student.

It's not.  This is a rock that is constantly painted / repainted for various things...weddings, UNWSP events, etc.

I saw that takedown too!  "Slammed" is an excellent description...definitely not just tackled. 

Legal Eagles - could someone like that potentially sue an institution for being injured in such a takedown, or is the act of running onto the field a de facto surrender of those rights?

[hazzben]

I think you make a good point, but maybe it's a little more complex than endowment. MIT and Chicago have massive endowments, but it's not like they're perennial DIII football powerhouses. UWW has an endowment of $17M and MU's endowment sits at $120M; neither university seems to have a problem financially supporting elite football programs. For the former two examples, lack of campus interest and selectivity play a major role. I assume the pool of kids with serious academic resumes and mad football skills is rather small. For the latter two, it's less about academics and more, if not nearly all, about the football. I think they're pulling in a lot of kids who want to play football first and get a degree second. They've developed the national reputation for football and for those not quite up to DI standards, they're a natural fit.

Bethel is about the football and the academics, but a certain kind of academics. Even without the massive endowment, the administration could funnel serious money into the football program. However, without a longer track record of success at the highest levels of DIII, they're never going to have the draw of UWW or MU. Bethel football isn't hampered by sky-high selectivity, but as a regional college they have a smaller pool from which to draw talent. Finally, going back to the certain kind of academics bit, Bethel is a very conservative Christian campus and this is not going to appeal to many. I assume some elite football recruits will be drawn to the culture, but many will not be. That's just my two cents. Considering what they've become, I think Johnson and staff have done an outstanding job.

It's definitely not all about endowment. But the amount of aid a school can give to any student is certainly heavily tied to this.

As for MIT and Chicago, that's a concerted effort not to emphasize athletics from the administration. But I'd wager the average student gets a rather Carleton-esq aid package.

As for UWW, that's apples to oranges. A state school's endowment is hardly how they make their gravy, at least at the D3 level. One way private schools with large endowments compete with the low price tag of schools like the WIAC is their ability to grant substantial aid packages. MN or WI students enrolling at UWW pay drastically less money (tuition, room and board is easily a difference of $20-$30k/year). The argument on the WIAC board is that most private school kids aren't paying the sticker price. And at some schools, with generous aid packages, that's probably often the case. It's simply not the case at Bethel though. But to your point, consider that UWW & BU have very similar endowments, but only one of them also receives a substantial portion of its funding through state money.

As for Mount, a $120 m endowment is nothing to sneeze at (it's almost 6x's the size of BU's). I'd wager their aid packages are strong, but probably not exceptional. They also have a history of success and sit in a fertile recruiting area. That, along with great coaching is a pretty solid recipe for success (obviously).

As for the the academics and kind of kid Bethel attracts and recruits. This is actually Bethel's sweet spot, not a detriment. They have a nice niche of offering strong academics, from an evangelical perspective, coupled with competitive athletics. It's that unique profile that gives them any chance to compete for talent. They simply aren't going H2H with SJU, UST, et al for the same kind of players, by and large. I realize that's a bit of a generalization, certainly there are some kids being recruited by them all, but the pitch is very different for Bethel. When they land a kid, it's almost never because they had the best aid package or best facilities. It's because the culture at Bethel was what they desired (that's not to imply UST, SJU, GAC, etc. have difficient campus cultures, rather to recognize that Bethel's is definitely unique amongst MIAC institutions).

Wheaton is a similar profile, but recruits more nationally than regionally, it's also generally more selective. UNWSP doesn't have the football profile (the UMAC simply isn't the MIAC and most MN/WI kids realize that). The culture piece + good football/athletics is Bethel's fastball in recruiting. But they don't have an arsenal of 3 other pitches, to abuse the analogy.

This isn't meant to a be sour-grapes, woe is me/Bethel conversation. So don't get me wrong. But BU is consistently offering much lower aid packages (not for lack of institutional support, but simply based on the funds they have available) than it's MIAC counterparts. My point was, Coach J has an impressive track record. It only gets more impressive when you understand where the program was and the kind of support he's able to receive.

As a humorous, anecdotal side-note. Meidt related a conversation to Coach J that he'd had with some Olaf connected people this summer. They were bemoaning how unfair it was the crazy amounts of money UST and Bethel were spending on aid and marketing for their athletics programs. The gist was, there was no way for Olaf to compete against the deep pockets and this explained why they've slid athletically. Meidt found it hilarious that Bethel and UST's $ was being regarded as equal or even in the same ball park in this regard (he'd be the guy to know, having seen just how much deeper Olaf's pockets are than Bethel's). To which Coach J asked, did you set the guy straight? 'Nope,' he said, 'it was way to funny just listening to the nonsense!'

[AO]

fellas, the initialism you're looking for is UNW, not UNWSP.  If you want to visit the main website add the SP, for everything else, drop it.

Do we have any info about average financial aid package at BU compared to UST?  Endowments seem to be spent in many different ways. 

[SJUrube]

UST Game-5 Football Notes -- Oct. 9
Tommie Football Game-5 Notes/Oct. 9

Next Up:

No. 21-ranked St. Thomas (3-1 overall, 1-1 MIAC) plays its fifth game of the 2014 football season Sat. Oct. 11 at home against the Auggies of Augsburg College (2-2 overall, 1-1 MIAC). Kickoff is at 1:10 p.m...

Anyone know when UST started going by the AFCA rankings instead of D3Football.com? Any chance the timing corresponds to them sitting one spot and 9 points from dropping out of the D3Football rankings?

[Mr.MIAC]

I think you make a good point, but maybe it's a little more complex than endowment. MIT and Chicago have massive endowments, but it's not like they're perennial DIII football powerhouses. UWW has an endowment of $17M and MU's endowment sits at $120M; neither university seems to have a problem financially supporting elite football programs. For the former two examples, lack of campus interest and selectivity play a major role. I assume the pool of kids with serious academic resumes and mad football skills is rather small. For the latter two, it's less about academics and more, if not nearly all, about the football. I think they're pulling in a lot of kids who want to play football first and get a degree second. They've developed the national reputation for football and for those not quite up to DI standards, they're a natural fit.

Bethel is about the football and the academics, but a certain kind of academics. Even without the massive endowment, the administration could funnel serious money into the football program. However, without a longer track record of success at the highest levels of DIII, they're never going to have the draw of UWW or MU. Bethel football isn't hampered by sky-high selectivity, but as a regional college they have a smaller pool from which to draw talent. Finally, going back to the certain kind of academics bit, Bethel is a very conservative Christian campus and this is not going to appeal to many. I assume some elite football recruits will be drawn to the culture, but many will not be. That's just my two cents. Considering what they've become, I think Johnson and staff have done an outstanding job.

It's definitely not all about endowment. But the amount of aid a school can give to any student is certainly heavily tied to this.

As for MIT and Chicago, that's a concerted effort not to emphasize athletics from the administration. But I'd wager the average student gets a rather Carleton-esq aid package.

As for UWW, that's apples to oranges. A state school's endowment is hardly how they make their gravy, at least at the D3 level. One way private schools with large endowments compete with the low price tag of schools like the WIAC is their ability to grant substantial aid packages. MN or WI students enrolling at UWW pay drastically less money (tuition, room and board is easily a difference of $20-$30k/year). The argument on the WIAC board is that most private school kids aren't paying the sticker price. And at some schools, with generous aid packages, that's probably often the case. It's simply not the case at Bethel though. But to your point, consider that UWW & BU have very similar endowments, but only one of them also receives a substantial portion of its funding through state money.

As for Mount, a $120 m endowment is nothing to sneeze at (it's almost 6x's the size of BU's). I'd wager their aid packages are strong, but probably not exceptional. They also have a history of success and sit in a fertile recruiting area. That, along with great coaching is a pretty solid recipe for success (obviously).

As for the the academics and kind of kid Bethel attracts and recruits. This is actually Bethel's sweet spot, not a detriment. They have a nice niche of offering strong academics, from an evangelical perspective, coupled with competitive athletics. It's that unique profile that gives them any chance to compete for talent. They simply aren't going H2H with SJU, UST, et al for the same kind of players, by and large. I realize that's a bit of a generalization, certainly there are some kids being recruited by them all, but the pitch is very different for Bethel. When they land a kid, it's almost never because they had the best aid package or best facilities. It's because the culture at Bethel was what they desired (that's not to imply UST, SJU, GAC, etc. have difficient campus cultures, rather to recognize that Bethel's is definitely unique amongst MIAC institutions).

Wheaton is a similar profile, but recruits more nationally than regionally, it's also generally more selective. UNWSP doesn't have the football profile (the UMAC simply isn't the MIAC and most MN/WI kids realize that). The culture piece + good football/athletics is Bethel's fastball in recruiting. But they don't have an arsenal of 3 other pitches, to abuse the analogy.

This isn't meant to a be sour-grapes, woe is me/Bethel conversation. So don't get me wrong. But BU is consistently offering much lower aid packages (not for lack of institutional support, but simply based on the funds they have available) than it's MIAC counterparts. My point was, Coach J has an impressive track record. It only gets more impressive when you understand where the program was and the kind of support he's able to receive.

As a humorous, anecdotal side-note. Meidt related a conversation to Coach J that he'd had with some Olaf connected people this summer. They were bemoaning how unfair it was the crazy amounts of money UST and Bethel were spending on aid and marketing for their athletics programs. The gist was, there was no way for Olaf to compete against the deep pockets and this explained why they've slid athletically. Meidt found it hilarious that Bethel and UST's $ was being regarded as equal or even in the same ball park in this regard (he'd be the guy to know, having seen just how much deeper Olaf's pockets are than Bethel's). To which Coach J asked, did you set the guy straight? 'Nope,' he said, 'it was way to funny just listening to the nonsense!'

Good post. + K. You touch on an interesting topic. I wonder what degree of religiosity one would find amongst MIAC schools. Are BU kids more religious than UST kids? More importantly, I wonder if football players at some MIAC schools tend to be more/less religious than the average student on campus. At BU/UST does one find especially religious football players or football players who are okay with religion?

[hazzben]

Good post. + K. You touch on an interesting topic. I wonder what degree of religiosity one would find amongst MIAC schools. Are BU kids more religious than UST kids? More importantly, I wonder if football players at some MIAC schools tend to be more/less religious than the average student on campus. At BU/UST does one find especially religious football players or football players who are okay with religion?

I can't presume to speak to other schools in the MIAC.

At Bethel, from my time there as an undergrad, seminary student and assistant coach, I'd argue that Bethel has and is recruiting players that are religious (although that's not the nomenclature they'd probably use to self-ascribe, nor would I).

One of the things that drew me there was the atmosphere on the football team. It wasn't like some religiously affiliated schools I visited (NB: it was the only MIAC school I was recruited by - so there's no slight implied in this - the others were GPAC, NCC, IIAC and one upper division independent), where the athletes seemed to be markedly less-religious/devout (if you will) than the student body. The sense I got during recruitment at Bethel from players and coaches, and which held up upon attendance, was that the football players were representative of the student body's faith commitment, if not slightly above it.

Which is precisely what Coach J aims for. Namely, that the football team would set the bar for spirituality and Christian maturity on campus, not be a detriment to it.

Obviously this is a generalization. There are always some that fall outside the norm in every program, just like every fan base. For instance, my dad and brother are both generally tolerable NYY fans. They are an endangered species however! 

[Mr. Ypsi]

UST Game-5 Football Notes -- Oct. 9
Tommie Football Game-5 Notes/Oct. 9

Next Up:

No. 21-ranked St. Thomas (3-1 overall, 1-1 MIAC) plays its fifth game of the 2014 football season Sat. Oct. 11 at home against the Auggies of Augsburg College (2-2 overall, 1-1 MIAC). Kickoff is at 1:10 p.m...

Anyone know when UST started going by the AFCA rankings instead of D3Football.com? Any chance the timing corresponds to them sitting one spot and 9 points from dropping out of the D3Football rankings?

I suspect that every school promotes whichever poll they are highest ranked in.

[SJUrube]

UST Game-5 Football Notes -- Oct. 9
Tommie Football Game-5 Notes/Oct. 9

Next Up:

No. 21-ranked St. Thomas (3-1 overall, 1-1 MIAC) plays its fifth game of the 2014 football season Sat. Oct. 11 at home against the Auggies of Augsburg College (2-2 overall, 1-1 MIAC). Kickoff is at 1:10 p.m...

Anyone know when UST started going by the AFCA rankings instead of D3Football.com? Any chance the timing corresponds to them sitting one spot and 9 points from dropping out of the D3Football rankings?

I suspect that every school promotes whichever poll they are highest ranked in.

In that case I'd like to let the SJU SID know I currently have them ranked #1 in my S MPLS DIII Top 25.

UST isn't ignoring the D3Football rankings as the poll is mentioned later on in the notes.

"UST is ranked No. 21 in this week's poll AFCA poll and is No. 24 by D3Football.com. The Toms have been ranked in the national top 25 by D3football.com for 70 consecutive polls."

It would appear they are demanding a recount of the latest vote tabulations.

[retagent]

Good post hazz. The subject you explored is quite interesting. Usually, I get into it with the WIAC (read UWW) people and they seem to take offense when the obvious differences are pointed out. Some of which, in my opinion, give state schools a decided recruiting advantage. You put it in such a way that while pointing out "different cultures" at schools, it is in no way denegrating one over the other, or implying that one is inferior. I wish I could have done it as well.

[OldAuggie]

It's hard for me to remember Bethel being bad.  I recall going to a SJU/Bethel in the mid/late '90s that was pretty lopsided, but 1999 was my freshman season at SJU, and Bethel finally toppled the red giant that year, and did so again in '00.  From that point forward, BC/BU's been pretty darn tough.  In '01, Bethel was tough, but that game was all SJU (right, Hazz???  ), and '02 was an SJU win, but a pretty even game.

Along similar lines, I was chatting with a co-worker who played for the cobbers in the late 90's, and he was telling me about how good Augsburg was.  Strange to hear for a person who's context of knowing the MIAC didn't start until around 2003, when Augsburg has rarely presented more than a speed bump for the top end of the MIAC.

Bethel was a bad team in my playing days at Augsburg. We had no trouble with them. Bethel was about the same as Macalester, maybe worse. Hamline was outstanding my senior year; they won the MIAC and beat the NIC (now NSIC) Champions Winona State, a D2 team, in their non-conference game.

[emma17]

Good post hazz. The subject you explored is quite interesting. Usually, I get into it with the WIAC (read UWW) people and they seem to take offense when the obvious differences are pointed out. Some of which, in my opinion, give state schools a decided recruiting advantage. You put it in such a way that while pointing out "different cultures" at schools, it is in no way denegrating one over the other, or implying that one is inferior. I wish I could have done it as well.

Agree entirely Ret.  Plus K to both Haz and Rev on a very interesting and respectful discussion.

Don't tell my UWW friends, I'd be overjoyed if my son (senior in HS) chooses a religious based university from the MIAC.

Spelling error when discussing college selection- that's ding worthy.   

[repete]

Nice discussion. And then there are some of us (OK, very few of us) who remember Bethel as a tiny campus in St. Paul. If I recall, it had a small cluster of brick buildings across from the fair grounds on Snelling.

Pretty amazing rise to its current status.

[hazzben]

Nice discussion. And then there are some of us (OK, very few of us) who remember Bethel as a tiny campus in St. Paul. If I recall, it had a small cluster of brick buildings across from the fair grounds on Snelling.

Pretty amazing rise to its current status.

Yep, a whoppin 8 acres where the Job Corps now resides. At the time the Baptist General Conference thought 8 acres would be more than enough room. Oops, considering they are running out of space on the nearly 300 acre Arden Hills campus.

My in-laws were a part of the first class that got to migrate over to the new buildings. A few years back for homecoming they got to do tours of the old 'campus' on Snelling.

If you really go back in time to 1871, Bethel was originally located back in Chicago and was closely associated with the University of Chicago (Now referred to as the Old University of Chicago), another baptist institution. They shared professors, with Bethel more specifically concentrating its efforts on the Swedish Baptist population that had fled religious persecution in the 'Old Country.'

John Edgren moved the school to MN in part to ensure that it remained sectarian and didn't transition into a secular institution as  the University of Chicago was choosing to do.

All this actually makes the meeting with the University of Chicago in two weeks a pretty fun little romp back through history! Maybe we can convince them to share some of their endowment with a long lost cousin  We'll just take $470 million, they'd never miss it, and it rounds their bank account to a neat $7,000,000,000 

[bennie]

About the Ohio state takedown, my friend who is the Evans advisor here has been joking about sending that video clip out to his students as an example of what not to do! That is a fantastic scholarship and what a shame to lose it with a stupid stunt.

One of the problems with trying to compare financial aid award packages from multiple schools is that it would have to be one student's award letter from each school and assuming the student fell into the same catagories ("on-time" admission application date and fafsa application date) at each school, otherwise you are comparing apples and oranges. Different EFC's and application dates, not to mention institutional policy, can significantly impact a student's award. Heck, even if you do your FAFSA on January 1st, but don't add a school to your application until say April, it could make a difference in the award.