FB: Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[hazzben]

Another element to this is schools that intentionally won't divide, for the sake of a competitive advantage (I'm looking at you Eden Prairie & Wayzata). If Bloomington was still just one school, it'd be of similar size to these guys.

This happens all the time in Texas, where huge high schools refuse to split into two schools, so they can keep dominating a sport. But it's terrible for participation levels. If memory serves, back in the 90's there was a TX HS that didn't split until the state legislature got involved. Once it did, the two schools were still both in the top 10 for enrollment!

This would also have a significant trickledown affect in the quality of small college ball in MN. How many late bloomers at huge schools just never get a chance or get weeded out in middle school or JV levels, who would actually make really solid d3 athletes?

Some sort of trigger, if you're HS enrollment is 2,500+ for 3 straight years, the plan goes into motion for a new HS. You do like Bloomington and other schools, where you still have just one AD for the district (along with assist AD's) and other admin personnel, to keep costs down. This seems like a win in the classroom as well, it's gotta be easier to manage a HS of 1,200 to even 2,000 students than it is to manage one of 3,000+. Lakeville is a great relatively recent example of how this should work.

[AO]

Another element to this is schools that intentionally won't divide, for the sake of a competitive advantage (I'm looking at you Eden Prairie & Wayzata). If Bloomington was still just one school, it'd be of similar size to these guys.

This happens all the time in Texas, where huge high schools refuse to split into two schools, so they can keep dominating a sport. But it's terrible for participation levels. If memory serves, back in the 90's there was a TX HS that didn't split until the state legislature got involved. Once it did, the two schools were still both in the top 10 for enrollment!

This would also have a significant trickledown affect in the quality of small college ball in MN. How many late bloomers at huge schools just never get a chance or get weeded out in middle school or JV levels, who would actually make really solid d3 athletes?

Some sort of trigger, if you're HS enrollment is 2,500+ for 3 straight years, the plan goes into motion for a new HS. You do like Bloomington and other schools, where you still have just one AD for the district (along with assist AD's) and other admin personnel, to keep costs down. This seems like a win in the classroom as well, it's gotta be easier to manage a HS of 1,200 to even 2,000 students than it is to manage one of 3,000+. Lakeville is a great relatively recent example of how this should work.

Wayzata voted last year to expand to 3900 students rather than build a new high school.  They found operating a second high school would cost $12 million more than expanding, and their academic offerings would be reduced.  $12 Million seems like a lot of money to be spending to get Jimmy and Johnny more playing time.  I love high school sports, but the district and the voters absolutely made the right call to focus more on the costs and academics rather than worry about how it's going to affect the sports.

[hazzben]

Another element to this is schools that intentionally won't divide, for the sake of a competitive advantage (I'm looking at you Eden Prairie & Wayzata). If Bloomington was still just one school, it'd be of similar size to these guys.

This happens all the time in Texas, where huge high schools refuse to split into two schools, so they can keep dominating a sport. But it's terrible for participation levels. If memory serves, back in the 90's there was a TX HS that didn't split until the state legislature got involved. Once it did, the two schools were still both in the top 10 for enrollment!

This would also have a significant trickledown affect in the quality of small college ball in MN. How many late bloomers at huge schools just never get a chance or get weeded out in middle school or JV levels, who would actually make really solid d3 athletes?

Some sort of trigger, if you're HS enrollment is 2,500+ for 3 straight years, the plan goes into motion for a new HS. You do like Bloomington and other schools, where you still have just one AD for the district (along with assist AD's) and other admin personnel, to keep costs down. This seems like a win in the classroom as well, it's gotta be easier to manage a HS of 1,200 to even 2,000 students than it is to manage one of 3,000+. Lakeville is a great relatively recent example of how this should work.

Wayzata voted last year to expand to 3900 students rather than build a new high school.  They found operating a second high school would cost $12 million more than expanding, and their academic offerings would be reduced.  $12 Million seems like a lot of money to be spending to get Jimmy and Johnny more playing time.  I love high school sports, but the district and the voters absolutely made the right call to focus more on the costs and academics rather than worry about how it's going to affect the sports.

Yeah, put me in the highly suspicious category regarding their motivation. There are ways to make these things cost effective. Everything I've heard from teachers and admin at schools who have multiplied is that it's a boon for all involved (maybe with the exception of the centralized office folks).

[AO]

Another element to this is schools that intentionally won't divide, for the sake of a competitive advantage (I'm looking at you Eden Prairie & Wayzata). If Bloomington was still just one school, it'd be of similar size to these guys.

This happens all the time in Texas, where huge high schools refuse to split into two schools, so they can keep dominating a sport. But it's terrible for participation levels. If memory serves, back in the 90's there was a TX HS that didn't split until the state legislature got involved. Once it did, the two schools were still both in the top 10 for enrollment!

This would also have a significant trickledown affect in the quality of small college ball in MN. How many late bloomers at huge schools just never get a chance or get weeded out in middle school or JV levels, who would actually make really solid d3 athletes?

Some sort of trigger, if you're HS enrollment is 2,500+ for 3 straight years, the plan goes into motion for a new HS. You do like Bloomington and other schools, where you still have just one AD for the district (along with assist AD's) and other admin personnel, to keep costs down. This seems like a win in the classroom as well, it's gotta be easier to manage a HS of 1,200 to even 2,000 students than it is to manage one of 3,000+. Lakeville is a great relatively recent example of how this should work.

Wayzata voted last year to expand to 3900 students rather than build a new high school.  They found operating a second high school would cost $12 million more than expanding, and their academic offerings would be reduced.  $12 Million seems like a lot of money to be spending to get Jimmy and Johnny more playing time.  I love high school sports, but the district and the voters absolutely made the right call to focus more on the costs and academics rather than worry about how it's going to affect the sports.

Yeah, put me in the highly suspicious category regarding their motivation. There are ways to make these things cost effective. Everything I've heard from teachers and admin at schools who have multiplied is that it's a boon for all involved (maybe with the exception of the centralized office folks).

Read their analysis here: http://www.wayzata.k12.mn.us/Page/15340  There's way too many districts in the cities who voted to build more high schools so their kids can have a better chance to play varsity sports.
 
In my estimate there is a diminishing return with athletic success and enrollment increases.  Once you get past 2000 students you're not out looking for enough bodies to fill the football team.  It's far more important who the coach is and the work each player does in the off-season.

[sfury]

Class basketball talk! Siren call. It's like Duff hearing about a beer chat.

RoR,
Trivia tidbit: Between 1973-75, Chisholm lost 3 games total. None in the regular season. To Anoka in the playoff game in 73 after winning the Class A title (when they beat Olberding and Melrose). In 1974 Melrose beat them in state tourney. In 1975 they lost to Little Falls in the playoff game after winning Class A (Johnnie fans should know about Little Falls' star player...Frank Wachlarowicz.) I've spoken to Mike and Paul McDonald about those extra playoff games and they said they were very strange when you lost them. Because you were the state champs...who returned home losing your final game. Doesn't seem right and I think it was good they did away with that, even though it would be fun seeing two champs meet. And one year there was a huge snowstorm that delayed the game so the crowd was pretty small by the time they played.

I loved the Sweet 16 too and think it was great idea but I feel like some people, whether at state level or media, were looking for too much out of it. They seemingly wanted to recapture the atmosphere from the days when Edgerton won it. That was impossible by that point. Reusse's written about this a lot, how in the 60s, the state hoops tourney was THE event in the state. But too many things had changed to make that happen again in 1995-96. You weren't going to get 18,000 people watching the final again. It wasn't going to dominate media coverage. And people seemed disappointed by that and let it die. But the small schools did pretty well in that. The Staples-North game of course (although that does come with a bit of an asterisk as North was missing a few starters). The next year North killed Fertile-Beltrami but there were other small schools that year who could have challenged the El-Amin dynasty. How do I know that? Because one of them, New London-Spicer, beat North in the regular season. Robert Zimmerman will remember this well as my roommate that year was a NLS fanatic and attended the game in the packed NLS gym. Snapped North's long winning streak. Tight game, and even in the final moments Khalid threw an oop off the board to Jabbar Washington for a dunk that was incredible. New London though got upset in Sweet 16 by Minnehaha Academy, who then beat...Eden Prairie. My guys from JWP were in it that year and lost to F-B and then gave Eden Prairie a real good game for three quarters.

So small could still beat big in hoops. You get two or three really good players and you can do it. People have mentioned the Litchfield team. There have been many more: Caledonia or JWP in 1997. The Braham teams. The Southwest Christian teams of the early 00s. But I don't think you could bring back one class because it would seem way too much like just old people wanting to recapture their glory days even if that's not necessarily the case. And like I said, you're not recreating the atmosphere from 1960.

For my book I met Bobby Plump, the star of Milan's 1954 title team, the inspiration for Hoosiers. When Indiana went to 4 classes in 1998 -- talk about chaos -- Plump had been leading the charge to keep it one class. He was vilified in many corners, usually by small school people who ridiculed him for stealing opportunities from other small school kids. Why wouldn't he want current kids to have a shot at winning a state title like he did? And as he's said, it had nothing to do with that. He made a great point about how in the one class days, the teams who won sectional and regional titles in Indiana were remembered for decades, even if they didn't make it to the Final Four. Whereas everyone forgets the four class champs about a week after the tourneys. Losing was not a bad thing then -- it really was about competing against the best, against everyone, and taking pride in how you did.

And even in the 2 class days we had that. We wanted nothing more than to play our big neighbor Waseca and kick their ass, which we did in the playoffs one year. Playing the Mankato schools? Great. It made you want to be better, even if it meant your best wouldn't be good enough.

Football's obviously different, as has been discussed, because of the injuries. There might be too many classes now but how many would you realistically remove? One or two only, right? but hoops...two is plenty. (says the old man who now wants you to get off his lawn).

[AO]

Class basketball talk! Siren call. It's like Duff hearing about a beer chat.

I loved the Sweet 16 too and think it was great idea but I feel like some people, whether at state level or media, were looking for too much out of it. They seemingly wanted to recapture the atmosphere from the days when Edgerton won it. That was impossible by that point. Reusse's written about this a lot, how in the 60s, the state hoops tourney was THE event in the state. But too many things had changed to make that happen again in 1995-96. You weren't going to get 18,000 people watching the final again. It wasn't going to dominate media coverage. And people seemed disappointed by that and let it die.

The record books show attendance for the finals went from 7,122 in 1994 to 9,851 in 1995.  That's a pretty healthy jump.  There were  12,917 in attendance for the 2013 AAA and AAAA finals.  I think the interest is there to push it to a full house if they get the right matchups after a potential reduction down to 2 classes.

The next year North killed Fertile-Beltrami but there were other small schools that year who could have challenged the El-Amin dynasty. How do I know that? Because one of them, New London-Spicer, beat North in the regular season. Robert Zimmerman will remember this well as my roommate that year was a NLS fanatic and attended the game in the packed NLS gym.

I went to a few New London-Spicer vs. Morris games with my dad during those years.  Standing room only at NL-S and Morris where they'd play at the Minnesota-Morris gym (capacity 3500?).  Jamie Swenson vs Kevin Loge.  I'm sure part of the difference in my perception of the games was my age but in my mind, the 1995 and 1996 section games with the sweet sixteen format as the prize were way bigger than when we made it to state in class A in '91 or AA in the four class system in '98 and when I played in 2002. 

[sfury]

Mid-90s had some awesome matchups in that part of the state. The Witt-Loge Morris team that did so well in 94 was actually supposed to be the team to challenge North in 95 but of course didn't make it. Then 96 you had NL-S and Sartell, with Duff's guys Archambault and Wrightson (my aforementioned roommate was obsessed with Archambault. Loved him. The swagger, the attitude, the skills. But after he saw North he came back saying, "Oh my god" (actual quote), "Khalid is incredible. He's even better than Russ." True, of course.) New London blew Sartell out of the water at packed St. cloud State in sections, so they really looked like they were primed for state tourney run but fell right away.

It was similar story for section games at Mankato State. Now half the joint is empty for section final games at the new palace. Back in the Otto/Highland Arena days, people would have to sit on the floor because the stands were filled. One March night it took me 4.5 hours to get from St. John's down to Mankato to see the JWP-Maple River section final because of an ice storm. I got there at end of first half and had to stand the whole game. But compare that to when JWP slopped its way to state like seven, eight years ago and no one cared (especially when they lost by about 50. Yet that team is a state qualifier).

[AO]

Then 96 you had NL-S and Sartell, with Duff's guys Archambault and Wrightson (my aforementioned roommate was obsessed with Archambault. Loved him. The swagger, the attitude, the skills. But after he saw North he came back saying, "Oh my god" (actual quote), "Khalid is incredible. He's even better than Russ." True, of course.)

--Russ had a rough New Years Eve back in 2011.
Two quick Archambault stories to throw around second hand;
-Russ got in a fight with Khalid during an open gym at the U.  Possibly a significant part in pushing Khalid away from Clem and the U and towards UCONN.
-Linnemann says he, Russ and a few guys went to the St. Cloud Taco Bell during a break before one of the all-star games.  Russ said to his teammates "check this out" as he went behind the counter, stole some tacos and bolted out the door.

**EDIT** Russ' teammate from Sartell hasn't had much luck either in recent years- Ned Wrightson.   

[OldAuggie]

This:

In 1975 they lost to Little Falls in the playoff game after winning Class A (Johnnie fans should know about Little Falls' star player...Frank Wachlarowicz.)

Explains

This:

1975 AA Little Falls (26-1) C Robbinsdale F 54-49

Anyone have any history on this game?

[sfury]

Auggie, If no one else offers up anything, tonight when I get home I'll look up that 75 game in this incredible book I have. It's called Gopher State greatness: 30 Years of Minnesota Basketball. Unmatched book when it comes to hoops history in the state, covers from 1951-1981. Joel Krenz was the author. Nearly impossible to find a copy of it now but I tracked one down few years back. But it has great details on about a million games so will look that one up.

[DuffMan]

Wrightson and Archambault... 

Those guys were seniors when I was a freshman.  They walked around like they owned Sartell, and at the time, they pretty much did.  They've certainly fallen far!

[sfury]

Wrightson and Archambault... 

Those guys were seniors when I was a freshman.  They walked around like they owned Sartell, and at the time, they pretty much did.  They've certainly fallen far!

You got the last laugh, Duff. (Unless they steal your car some night or your license and identity.)

[OldAuggie]

Auggie, If no one else offers up anything, tonight when I get home I'll look up that 75 game in this incredible book I have. It's called Gopher State greatness: 30 Years of Minnesota Basketball. Unmatched book when it comes to hoops history in the state, covers from 1951-1981. Joel Krenz was the author. Nearly impossible to find a copy of it now but I tracked one down few years back. But it has great details on about a million games so will look that one up.

Thanks!

[GoldandBlueBU]

**EDIT** Russ' teammate from Sartell hasn't had much luck either in recent years- Ned Wrightson.

Sheesh, that is one heck of an article...and all the pictures!  Sad stuff.

[MadRedFan]

I can see the SJU crowd being distracted by high school sports with Carleton on the schedule (altho I hope the team is not similarly distracted), but one would think the Bethel and Tommie folks would have something to say about college football at this point in the week!!!   

I mean not to compare Carleton to a HS team, only that the Johnnies might be taking them lightly!!